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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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In that case I think them being split is more of an issue in that they can't mount a defense and thus won't be prepared when he and his henchmen do finally attack.
As of Civil War there are no Avengers. It's like, Tony and Vision and maybe Spider-Man. As for the worf effect we definitely need Thanos knocking the shit out of Thor and Hulk.
edited 11th Apr '17 9:45:37 AM by comicwriter
The Worf Effect is a problem when it is habitual, gauging a threat entirely by how badly they beat the strongest member, especially if the strongest member doesn't get a chance to prove how strong they really are. But still, establishing a threat is an important factor in these types of stories and protecting your characters like that doesn't do them any favors. Hela crushing Mjolnir leaves quite an image, and seeing Thor beaten down like this is probably the best thing for the character (Thor has always been one of the weaker characters of the MCU). Let him get beaten down and seeing him come back makes it worthwhile.
You know, that Thor trailer really is good. I showed it to my mom and she really loved the trailer. Prior to watching the trailer, she had the opinion that Marvel shouldn't even bother with trailers, because she thinks that the number of people who watch the movies are going to be exactly the same regardless of whether the movie has advertising or not.
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Only if Hela turns out to not be evil after all but perhaps an extremely rigid neutral. Like, as befitting a classical death/destruction diety, she doesn't wipe out Asgard because of malice but because she must for some reason.
IIRC, the whole Thanos/Mistress Death thing works because Thanos doesn't realize that mass murder to fill her realm isn't at all what Death wants or cares about - the two aren't a Big Bad Duumvirate or anything.
edited 11th Apr '17 11:40:49 AM by KnownUnknown
edited 11th Apr '17 11:40:45 AM by alliterator
Hulk defeating Abomination is explicitly a struggle, and Abomination starts out stronger before Hulk finds the inner strength and resolve to take him down. That kind of sequence is the point of a physical threat, who are played out in two ways: either the hero finds it in them defeat them in a physical battle eventually, or they find another means of defeating them without physically doing so.
The same thing happened with Malekith, who was ultimately defeated intellectually.
What he wants to do and what he's capable of are not the same thing as the kind of threat he poses in the plot. If he wants to do something but doesn't have the ability to do it, and if he's capable of doing something but never actually uses it to its full extent, then neither of those things contribute to the threat level he poses.
edited 11th Apr '17 11:49:01 AM by KnownUnknown
But those were all at the end of the film, much like how Ultron lifts up the entire city at the end and the Avengers have to figure out a way to evacuate everyone and stop the city from falling.
Ultron's power isn't strength and it never was in the movie. Ultron's power is planning.
Not having physical strength to stop the Avengers doesn't mean he isn't smart.
edited 11th Apr '17 11:48:13 AM by alliterator
That being the case, that means the heroes defeated him before the final battle even happens. As I said, the movie averts Unspoken Plan Guarantee - everything they intend to do to stop the plan happens more or less as they plan, with a couple delays. This neuters the threat of the final battle.
The movie never makes a plot point or pulls any tension out of them reaching Sokovia in time. Also, Ultron did activate the device, but Ultron had no effective means of stopping them from countering it.
But the bit about Vision, especially. "If they didn't have Vision, they would have lost" doesn't do anything to elevate Ultron's ultimate threat level at all, given that they acquired Vision before they even faced him in the final battle. Vision was their ace in the hole, and his presence meant that no matter what, Ultron's ass was grass - the rest being a sore loser's tantrum. The viewers knew this before the final battle even happened, which made the whole thing something of a foregone conclusion and was a big torpedo into Ultron's capacity to be a threat.
Come to think of it, giving Ultron a means of countering Vision before Vision power's through it (again, a la Hulk finding the reserves to beat Abomination) or perhaps centering the battle on Vision before he cuts Ultron would've helped give Ultron more of an ultimate threat level, and show more intelligence on his part as well.
Also, since the edit was ninja'd.
Off the top of my head:
- Constantly put him into fights, and generally progress the plot through fighting Ultron directly rather than by countering his schemes (which the movie does not develop explicitly). This establishes him as a physical threat off the bat, and leaves the more mental stuff for Scarlet Witch. Which ultimately causes the more mental aspect of his character to fall apart after she switches sides.
- Introduce a supposedly unbreakable adamantium body, with explicit exposition given to the idea that it would make him stronger or more durable, a development that implies he would provide a stronger physical threat than previously. This body ultimately turns out to be pointless. More of that fake stake raising mentioned earlier.
- Introduce an army. Much like the Chitauri, this is intended to be a physical threat to the heroes. While they are similarly individually weak like the Chitauri, unlike the Chitauri the movie doesn't play them up as a Zerg Rush. We don't see the heroes begin to run out of reserves as the battle goes on, as in Avengers. As such, the army is more of a shooting gallery - and generally feels like Padding. The only casualty is, as noted, a spite killing after the battle is already lost.
Note that the fact that he isn't strong despite the movie trying to use him as a physical threat is the problem. It would be like if Ronan was treated the exact same way in his own scenes, but the Guardians repeatedly defeated him throughout the movie anyway, and then got the Infinity Stone before him.
edited 11th Apr '17 12:01:57 PM by KnownUnknown
Ultron still provides the tension, because he is the architect of the problem. But if you are saying "But we knew they were going to save the world" uh...yeah. We always knew that.
[[quoteblock]]We don't see the heroes begin to run out of reserves as the battle goes on, as in Avengers.
edited 11th Apr '17 12:06:05 PM by alliterator
Ultron still provides the tension, because he is the architect of the problem. But if you are saying "But we knew they were going to save the world" uh...yeah. We always knew that.
Unspoken Plan Guarantee is a trope wherein, if the heroes detail a plan before the actual execution of that plan, the plan itself must in some way go wrong - and, on the flipside, if the heroes are to succeed, there will either be some kind of wrinkle that prevents them from doing so exactly as planned or the plan will rely on elements not introduced at the time (even movies that avert it, like A New Hope, still ensure that the execution is still very different from the plan - ANH by having everyone but the untrained hero perish one by one trying to accomplish it, and then hinge their success on a character who left the plot earlier).
There is a distinct narrative reason for this: if the audience knows how the heroes are going to defeat the villain before they actually do so, it neuters the tension in them actually accomplishing this because it diminishes the effect of us seeing it unfold and makes the villains seem impotent.
That the heroes continuously defeat Ultron using exactly what they have makes his defeats appear effortless, and the things that stall him somewhat contrived. The only time they are unable to do so with what they were already prepared to do is in evacuating the citizens, which is a secondary issue to facing Ultron or his device itself.
That's essentially my point, yes.
Again, Ultron not being strong enough justify the movie use of him as a primarily physical threat is the problem.
edited 11th Apr '17 12:40:29 PM by KnownUnknown
I know what Unspoken Plan Guarantee means. I also know that if they are planning to stop the end of the world, they will succeed no matter what.
Valkyrie is only rumored to be Thor's new love interest but there's no confirmation. Most likely it'll be some sort of UST to open the way for a proper romance down the line if it's received well. Since there's still a contingent of Jane/Thor fans who are dismayed about this movie.
Anyway maybe it's just me but does Ragnarok seem to look crisper than previous Marvel movies? Especially when the Hulk showed up. Not just talking about the colors, because there is still a bit of an issue with muddy light/dark values like in the past. But everything seemed not just bright and colorful like with the GOTG movies but really sharp and clear visually.
edited 11th Apr '17 1:06:06 PM by AlleyOop
Jaimie Alexander's TV schedule had something to do with it, IIRC. They probably still would have used Valkyrie regardless (they've been trying to get her into the MCU since The Dark World) but the same thing happened with the original actor who played Fandrall. He got a TV show and they had to recast the part.
edited 11th Apr '17 1:11:56 PM by comicwriter
I'm 90 percent certain that's gonna be the case because this just happened in the comics recently
◊, and everyone knows Marvel has a raging synergy boner.
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But isn't that the problem? That Ultron was set up as an emotional and intellectual threat. Yes, such a villain can work under the right circumstances, yet not in this one. This isn't a detective movie, or a buddy cop movie. It's a superhero movie.
The thing is, while Ultron's plan doesn't need him to overpower the Avenger with sheer strength (or numbers), his contingency measures should. Remember, he got beaten and the Avengers surrounded the gravitational device. By that point, the battle was pretty much won. No Ultron bot could penetrate the Avenger-shaped wall that stood between them and the button. Not even the main body, that was shown to be MUCH stronger than Thor himself (who is shown, in the first Avengers movie, to be capable of fighting the FREAKIN' HULK to a standstill), could pass them. By that moment, the threat was no more. Ultron got beaten like a bitch.
(One could argue that Ultron killed Quicksilver to make Scarlett Witch get away of the button and the be able to push it, but Ultron was not aiming at Quicksilver, but at Hawkeye. The fact that he even got a chance to push the button was mere luck.)
So, in a narrative sense, why didn't Ultron kicked more ass? I mean, he was hyped as a Hero Killer in the trailers. I think everybody here was expecting much more from him. Why, for fuck's sake, couldn't Whedon make him a lot more of a threat? When the moment for kicking the Avengers ass himself came, he disappointed really bad.
Wouldn't it had been better if, I don't know, Ultron managed to push the button while the Avengers were STILL fighting him?
Ok, we save the people that were up in the floating rock above, but then BAM!, Ultron manages to push his way between us, he pushes the button, the rock goes crashing down, we are still fighting, we're trying to destroy the rock but this fucker is WAY too strong, we can't do it, Thor is charging his POWAH, Ultron wants to stop him, OOPS QUICKIE DIEDED TRYING TO STOP ULTRON, we're still fighting, giant rock is about to hit the ground, FUCK THIS SHIT MAN, WE SHOULD'VE JUST BLOWN IT WHEN IT WAS IN THE SKY, NOW THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE IS GOING TO BE BY THE ROOF, HULK AND ULTRON BEGIN TO FIGHT, CAP, BARTON AND NATASHA GET SAVED BY FURY AGAINST THEIR WISHES, VISION SAVES WANDA, ULTRON IS DISTRACTED, BLOW THE THING THOR, BY MERE LUCK WE DESTROY IT BUT THOUSANDS DIE, ULTRON IS STILL ALIVE, HE GOT AWAY, PEOPLE ARE BLAMING US, SOME OF US RETIRE, WE CAN'T FIND ULTRON.
Cue Civil War.
I mean, it was that fucking easy (and it would've justified Vision absence from the Crossbones fight, he was trying to find Ultron or some shit).
Also, the Thor trailer. Man, it was fantastic, and Hela looks amazing.
Interestingly, it seems like Marvel is taking some cues, visually speaking, from the DC movies. I mean, both shots of Hela and her godly headwear, both shots showing the Valkyries (or whoever they were), Thor falling from the sky... I mean, I don't think any Marvel movie has that kind of visual style. Good for them, I say. If DC is superior to Marvel in any way, it'd be visually.
edited 11th Apr '17 1:33:09 PM by ExplosiveLion
I think it was Honest Trailers who pointed out the utter stupidity of the "This is what I wanted! All of you against all of me!!!" scene and how it was lazy writing that solely existed due to Whedon's desire to make sure the movie ended in a neat little package with no hanging threads.
Seriously if Ultron had kept one sentry back or somewhere else, he would've walked away to fight another day.
edited 11th Apr '17 1:30:53 PM by comicwriter
I'd argue that with the movie's insistence on progressing his plan through fistfights with the main characters, and with the blatancy of his final plan once the earlier stages fail, the movie features him more as a poorly written physical threat trying to pass himself off as intellectual (this, at least, was intentional), and focuses most of its actual intellectual threat onto Scarlet Witch instead. I wouldn't consider him an emotional threat at all.
The movie doesn't really feature him engaging the heroes on a more intrigue level, beyond going "neener neener, you'll never catch up to my master plan" (which turns out to just be a big bomb) whenever the latest punch-out doesn't go his way. There's lip service paid to him messing with the world's information, but as pointed out the movie doesn't actually do anything with it.
Witch is the one trying to break them apart by preying on their insecurities, making them doubt themselves and each other, and acting as the threat whose effects they can't defeat just by throwing enough punches and explosions. And while she works with Ultron for a time, it's established early on that her vendetta against the Avengers and plan to hurt them is her own arc that intersects with but is still separate from Ultron's schemes.
edited 11th Apr '17 1:36:35 PM by KnownUnknown

Ultron was able to handle Thor on his lonesome pretty well. It was a good start.
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