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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68501: Apr 11th 2017 at 9:36:28 AM

Ultron was able to handle Thor on his lonesome pretty well. It was a good start.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68502: Apr 11th 2017 at 9:44:58 AM

[up][up][up]In that case I think them being split is more of an issue in that they can't mount a defense and thus won't be prepared when he and his henchmen do finally attack.

As of Civil War there are no Avengers. It's like, Tony and Vision and maybe Spider-Man. As for the worf effect we definitely need Thanos knocking the shit out of Thor and Hulk.

edited 11th Apr '17 9:45:37 AM by comicwriter

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#68503: Apr 11th 2017 at 10:18:47 AM

The Worf Effect is a problem when it is habitual, gauging a threat entirely by how badly they beat the strongest member, especially if the strongest member doesn't get a chance to prove how strong they really are. But still, establishing a threat is an important factor in these types of stories and protecting your characters like that doesn't do them any favors. Hela crushing Mjolnir leaves quite an image, and seeing Thor beaten down like this is probably the best thing for the character (Thor has always been one of the weaker characters of the MCU). Let him get beaten down and seeing him come back makes it worthwhile.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#68504: Apr 11th 2017 at 10:19:22 AM

...Weaker?

Oh, you mean as a character. Duh.

My various fanfics.
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#68505: Apr 11th 2017 at 10:21:29 AM

I kind of hope that they combine Hela with Mistress Death in the MCU. Because not only would it give us more of Cate Blanchett, but I could totally see Thanos trying to kill every living thing in the universe in order to prove his love/devotion to Goth Queen Cate.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68506: Apr 11th 2017 at 11:19:59 AM

I agree. Plus, it would make sense to merge the characters. Even if the actual death should be more, well, neutral.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#68507: Apr 11th 2017 at 11:31:12 AM

You know, that Thor trailer really is good. I showed it to my mom and she really loved the trailer. Prior to watching the trailer, she had the opinion that Marvel shouldn't even bother with trailers, because she thinks that the number of people who watch the movies are going to be exactly the same regardless of whether the movie has advertising or not.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68508: Apr 11th 2017 at 11:39:20 AM

[up][up][up] Only if Hela turns out to not be evil after all but perhaps an extremely rigid neutral. Like, as befitting a classical death/destruction diety, she doesn't wipe out Asgard because of malice but because she must for some reason.

IIRC, the whole Thanos/Mistress Death thing works because Thanos doesn't realize that mass murder to fill her realm isn't at all what Death wants or cares about - the two aren't a Big Bad Duumvirate or anything.

edited 11th Apr '17 11:40:49 AM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68509: Apr 11th 2017 at 11:40:28 AM

Thor and Hulk's own movies routinely feature villains that overpower them, specifically because the heroes are supposed to be physical powerhouses and thus greater physical threats are required to maintain tension.
They don't, actually. Thor was depowered for most of his movie, but when he got his power back, he easily overpowered the Destroyer and defeated Loki. In The Dark World, the only reason Malekith is able to face Thor in the final battle is because he has an Infinity Stone and that's it. Otherwise, the two bad guys use guile more often than they use strength. In The Incredible Hulk, the Hulk's main enemy isn't stronger than him until the very end of the film and even then, the Hulk overpowers him. That's kind of the point.

The Avengers series is for antagonists even greater than that, antagonists that require all the heroes to fight together rather than being easily defeated by one of them.
Which Ultron counts as, not because of his physical strength, but because of his ability to spread himself out and his want to destroy the world.

And again, if they weren't going to have Ultron be powerful enough to back up the setup they did to his strength, then the movie should not have had that set-up in the first place.
When did the movie set up him being strong at all? They didn't. They set up the fact that he was learning, he was evil, and he wanted to punish the Avengers. That's it. Physical strength wasn't needed for that.

edited 11th Apr '17 11:40:45 AM by alliterator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68510: Apr 11th 2017 at 11:43:13 AM

Hulk defeating Abomination is explicitly a struggle, and Abomination starts out stronger before Hulk finds the inner strength and resolve to take him down. That kind of sequence is the point of a physical threat, who are played out in two ways: either the hero finds it in them defeat them in a physical battle eventually, or they find another means of defeating them without physically doing so.

The same thing happened with Malekith, who was ultimately defeated intellectually.

Which Ultron counts as, not because of his physical strength, but because of his ability to spread himself out and his want to destroy the world.

What he wants to do and what he's capable of are not the same thing as the kind of threat he poses in the plot. If he wants to do something but doesn't have the ability to do it, and if he's capable of doing something but never actually uses it to its full extent, then neither of those things contribute to the threat level he poses.

edited 11th Apr '17 11:49:01 AM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68511: Apr 11th 2017 at 11:46:20 AM

But those were all at the end of the film, much like how Ultron lifts up the entire city at the end and the Avengers have to figure out a way to evacuate everyone and stop the city from falling.

Ultron's power isn't strength and it never was in the movie. Ultron's power is planning.

What he wants to do and what he's capable of are not the same thing as the kind of threat he poses in the plot.
Ultron is fully capable of destroying the world. If the Avengers had never gotten to Sokovia in time, he would have done it. If the Ultron army had activated the device, he would have done it. If the Avengers had never created the Vision, he would have done it.

Not having physical strength to stop the Avengers doesn't mean he isn't smart.

edited 11th Apr '17 11:48:13 AM by alliterator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68512: Apr 11th 2017 at 11:51:31 AM

That being the case, that means the heroes defeated him before the final battle even happens. As I said, the movie averts Unspoken Plan Guarantee - everything they intend to do to stop the plan happens more or less as they plan, with a couple delays. This neuters the threat of the final battle.

The movie never makes a plot point or pulls any tension out of them reaching Sokovia in time. Also, Ultron did activate the device, but Ultron had no effective means of stopping them from countering it.

But the bit about Vision, especially. "If they didn't have Vision, they would have lost" doesn't do anything to elevate Ultron's ultimate threat level at all, given that they acquired Vision before they even faced him in the final battle. Vision was their ace in the hole, and his presence meant that no matter what, Ultron's ass was grass - the rest being a sore loser's tantrum. The viewers knew this before the final battle even happened, which made the whole thing something of a foregone conclusion and was a big torpedo into Ultron's capacity to be a threat.

Come to think of it, giving Ultron a means of countering Vision before Vision power's through it (again, a la Hulk finding the reserves to beat Abomination) or perhaps centering the battle on Vision before he cuts Ultron would've helped give Ultron more of an ultimate threat level, and show more intelligence on his part as well.

Also, since the edit was ninja'd.

When did the movie set up him being strong at all? They didn't.

Off the top of my head:

  • Constantly put him into fights, and generally progress the plot through fighting Ultron directly rather than by countering his schemes (which the movie does not develop explicitly). This establishes him as a physical threat off the bat, and leaves the more mental stuff for Scarlet Witch. Which ultimately causes the more mental aspect of his character to fall apart after she switches sides.
  • Introduce a supposedly unbreakable adamantium body, with explicit exposition given to the idea that it would make him stronger or more durable, a development that implies he would provide a stronger physical threat than previously. This body ultimately turns out to be pointless. More of that fake stake raising mentioned earlier.
  • Introduce an army. Much like the Chitauri, this is intended to be a physical threat to the heroes. While they are similarly individually weak like the Chitauri, unlike the Chitauri the movie doesn't play them up as a Zerg Rush. We don't see the heroes begin to run out of reserves as the battle goes on, as in Avengers. As such, the army is more of a shooting gallery - and generally feels like Padding. The only casualty is, as noted, a spite killing after the battle is already lost.

Note that the fact that he isn't strong despite the movie trying to use him as a physical threat is the problem. It would be like if Ronan was treated the exact same way in his own scenes, but the Guardians repeatedly defeated him throughout the movie anyway, and then got the Infinity Stone before him.

edited 11th Apr '17 12:01:57 PM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#68513: Apr 11th 2017 at 11:57:54 AM

You know, I have one little gripe with the Thor teaser: Valkyrie appears to have taken the place of Caiera.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68514: Apr 11th 2017 at 12:05:33 PM

That being the case, that means the heroes defeated him before the final battle even happens. As I said, the movie averts Unspoken Plan Guarantee - everything they intend to do to stop the plan happens more or less as they plan, with a couple delays. This neuters the threat of the final battle.
Ultron was never going to destroy the world. We all know that. If the villain's plan is "destroy the world," there is no tension that he will ever achieve the goal. That wasn't where the tension was going to be — the tension was always going to be "Can the Avengers evacuate everybody? Can they save everybody?"

Ultron still provides the tension, because he is the architect of the problem. But if you are saying "But we knew they were going to save the world" uh...yeah. We always knew that.

Constantly put him into fights, and generally progress the plot through fighting Ultron directly rather than by countering his schemes (which the movie does not develop explicitly).
Except whenever Ultron gets into a fight with an Avenger, he loses. Just simply "getting into fights" doesn't indicate strength. Winning fights does.

Introduce a supposedly unbreakable adamantium body, with explicit exposition given to the idea that it would make him stronger or more durable, a development that implies he would provide a stronger physical threat than previously.
Once again, not adamantium, Vibranium. There is a difference. And we know Vibranium isn't unbreakable, because we saw a visiion where Cap's shield was, say, broken. Therefore, using the Infinity Stone and Scarlet Witch's powers to break him is perfectly understandable. Hell, it's an Infinity Stone.

Introduce an army. Much like the Chitauri, this is intended to be a physical threat to the heroes. [[/quioteblock]] And much like the Chitauri, the Ultron army aren't physical threats to the heroes. They are a threat because of numbers, not strength. And they are introduced at the very end of the film.

[[quoteblock]]We don't see the heroes begin to run out of reserves as the battle goes on, as in Avengers.

This is because the Avengers had time to pre-plan and they had two new members. Even still, they are pretty goddamn tired at the end. We see Hawkeye collapse near the end of the battle.

The only casualty is, as noted, a spite killing after the battle is already lost.
I'm say that Ultron's motivation is pretty much always "spite."

edited 11th Apr '17 12:06:05 PM by alliterator

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#68515: Apr 11th 2017 at 12:10:29 PM

Valkyrie is supposed to be Thor's new love interest here if I'm not mistaken? Poor Sif, always the bridesmaid, never the bride (figuratively speaking of course).

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68516: Apr 11th 2017 at 12:19:01 PM

Ultron was never going to destroy the world. We all know that. If the villain's plan is "destroy the world," there is no tension that he will ever achieve the goal. That wasn't where the tension was going to be — the tension was always going to be "Can the Avengers evacuate everybody? Can they save everybody?"

Ultron still provides the tension, because he is the architect of the problem. But if you are saying "But we knew they were going to save the world" uh...yeah. We always knew that.

Unspoken Plan Guarantee is a trope wherein, if the heroes detail a plan before the actual execution of that plan, the plan itself must in some way go wrong - and, on the flipside, if the heroes are to succeed, there will either be some kind of wrinkle that prevents them from doing so exactly as planned or the plan will rely on elements not introduced at the time (even movies that avert it, like A New Hope, still ensure that the execution is still very different from the plan - ANH by having everyone but the untrained hero perish one by one trying to accomplish it, and then hinge their success on a character who left the plot earlier).

There is a distinct narrative reason for this: if the audience knows how the heroes are going to defeat the villain before they actually do so, it neuters the tension in them actually accomplishing this because it diminishes the effect of us seeing it unfold and makes the villains seem impotent.

That the heroes continuously defeat Ultron using exactly what they have makes his defeats appear effortless, and the things that stall him somewhat contrived. The only time they are unable to do so with what they were already prepared to do is in evacuating the citizens, which is a secondary issue to facing Ultron or his device itself.

Except whenever Ultron gets into a fight with an Avenger, he loses. Just simply "getting into fights" doesn't indicate strength. Winning fights does.

That's essentially my point, yes.

Again, Ultron not being strong enough justify the movie use of him as a primarily physical threat is the problem.

edited 11th Apr '17 12:40:29 PM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68517: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:01:18 PM

I know what Unspoken Plan Guarantee means. I also know that if they are planning to stop the end of the world, they will succeed no matter what.

That the heroes continuously defeat Ultron using exactly what they have makes his defeats appear effortless, and the things that stall him somewhat contrived.
Uh, no, it doesn't. The fact that they defeat him doesn't make it effortless (it takes quite a bit of effort in the end) and the fact that it's the Avengers stopping him doesn't make it contrived.

Again, Ultron not being strong enough justify the movie use of him as a primarily physical threat is the problem.
But, again, he's not a physical threat. He never was. He's an emotional and intellectual threat. Much like Loki was.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#68518: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:03:26 PM

Valkyrie is only rumored to be Thor's new love interest but there's no confirmation. Most likely it'll be some sort of UST to open the way for a proper romance down the line if it's received well. Since there's still a contingent of Jane/Thor fans who are dismayed about this movie.

Anyway maybe it's just me but does Ragnarok seem to look crisper than previous Marvel movies? Especially when the Hulk showed up. Not just talking about the colors, because there is still a bit of an issue with muddy light/dark values like in the past. But everything seemed not just bright and colorful like with the GOTG movies but really sharp and clear visually.

edited 11th Apr '17 1:06:06 PM by AlleyOop

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68519: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:07:31 PM

Valkyrie is supposed to be Thor's new love interest here if I'm not mistaken? Poor Sif, always the bridesmaid, never the bride (figuratively speaking of course).

Jaimie Alexander's TV schedule had something to do with it, IIRC. They probably still would have used Valkyrie regardless (they've been trying to get her into the MCU since The Dark World) but the same thing happened with the original actor who played Fandrall. He got a TV show and they had to recast the part.

edited 11th Apr '17 1:11:56 PM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68520: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:17:14 PM

Honestly, it would be weird if Sif suddenly became the bride after Thor overlooked her for centuries. Yeah, there are slow burn relationships, but if nothing happened by now, it just means that Thor doesn't feel attracted to her on a romantic level.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#68521: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:18:05 PM

I do hope they include some of Hulk's Planet Hulk cast.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68522: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:23:12 PM

I kind of hope that they combine Hela with Mistress Death in the MCU. Because not only would it give us more of Cate Blanchett, but I could totally see Thanos trying to kill every living thing in the universe in order to prove his love/devotion to Goth Queen Cate.

I'm 90 percent certain that's gonna be the case because this just happened in the comics recently, and everyone knows Marvel has a raging synergy boner.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#68523: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:25:37 PM

[up][up][up]

But isn't that the problem? That Ultron was set up as an emotional and intellectual threat. Yes, such a villain can work under the right circumstances, yet not in this one. This isn't a detective movie, or a buddy cop movie. It's a superhero movie.

The thing is, while Ultron's plan doesn't need him to overpower the Avenger with sheer strength (or numbers), his contingency measures should. Remember, he got beaten and the Avengers surrounded the gravitational device. By that point, the battle was pretty much won. No Ultron bot could penetrate the Avenger-shaped wall that stood between them and the button. Not even the main body, that was shown to be MUCH stronger than Thor himself (who is shown, in the first Avengers movie, to be capable of fighting the FREAKIN' HULK to a standstill), could pass them. By that moment, the threat was no more. Ultron got beaten like a bitch.

(One could argue that Ultron killed Quicksilver to make Scarlett Witch get away of the button and the be able to push it, but Ultron was not aiming at Quicksilver, but at Hawkeye. The fact that he even got a chance to push the button was mere luck.)

So, in a narrative sense, why didn't Ultron kicked more ass? I mean, he was hyped as a Hero Killer in the trailers. I think everybody here was expecting much more from him. Why, for fuck's sake, couldn't Whedon make him a lot more of a threat? When the moment for kicking the Avengers ass himself came, he disappointed really bad.

Wouldn't it had been better if, I don't know, Ultron managed to push the button while the Avengers were STILL fighting him?

Ok, we save the people that were up in the floating rock above, but then BAM!, Ultron manages to push his way between us, he pushes the button, the rock goes crashing down, we are still fighting, we're trying to destroy the rock but this fucker is WAY too strong, we can't do it, Thor is charging his POWAH, Ultron wants to stop him, OOPS QUICKIE DIEDED TRYING TO STOP ULTRON, we're still fighting, giant rock is about to hit the ground, FUCK THIS SHIT MAN, WE SHOULD'VE JUST BLOWN IT WHEN IT WAS IN THE SKY, NOW THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE IS GOING TO BE BY THE ROOF, HULK AND ULTRON BEGIN TO FIGHT, CAP, BARTON AND NATASHA GET SAVED BY FURY AGAINST THEIR WISHES, VISION SAVES WANDA, ULTRON IS DISTRACTED, BLOW THE THING THOR, BY MERE LUCK WE DESTROY IT BUT THOUSANDS DIE, ULTRON IS STILL ALIVE, HE GOT AWAY, PEOPLE ARE BLAMING US, SOME OF US RETIRE, WE CAN'T FIND ULTRON.

Cue Civil War.

I mean, it was that fucking easy (and it would've justified Vision absence from the Crossbones fight, he was trying to find Ultron or some shit).

Also, the Thor trailer. Man, it was fantastic, and Hela looks amazing.

Interestingly, it seems like Marvel is taking some cues, visually speaking, from the DC movies. I mean, both shots of Hela and her godly headwear, both shots showing the Valkyries (or whoever they were), Thor falling from the sky... I mean, I don't think any Marvel movie has that kind of visual style. Good for them, I say. If DC is superior to Marvel in any way, it'd be visually.

edited 11th Apr '17 1:33:09 PM by ExplosiveLion

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68524: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:30:24 PM

[up]I think it was Honest Trailers who pointed out the utter stupidity of the "This is what I wanted! All of you against all of me!!!" scene and how it was lazy writing that solely existed due to Whedon's desire to make sure the movie ended in a neat little package with no hanging threads.

Seriously if Ultron had kept one sentry back or somewhere else, he would've walked away to fight another day.

edited 11th Apr '17 1:30:53 PM by comicwriter

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68525: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:31:09 PM

I'd argue that with the movie's insistence on progressing his plan through fistfights with the main characters, and with the blatancy of his final plan once the earlier stages fail, the movie features him more as a poorly written physical threat trying to pass himself off as intellectual (this, at least, was intentional), and focuses most of its actual intellectual threat onto Scarlet Witch instead. I wouldn't consider him an emotional threat at all.

The movie doesn't really feature him engaging the heroes on a more intrigue level, beyond going "neener neener, you'll never catch up to my master plan" (which turns out to just be a big bomb) whenever the latest punch-out doesn't go his way. There's lip service paid to him messing with the world's information, but as pointed out the movie doesn't actually do anything with it.

Witch is the one trying to break them apart by preying on their insecurities, making them doubt themselves and each other, and acting as the threat whose effects they can't defeat just by throwing enough punches and explosions. And while she works with Ultron for a time, it's established early on that her vendetta against the Avengers and plan to hurt them is her own arc that intersects with but is still separate from Ultron's schemes.

edited 11th Apr '17 1:36:35 PM by KnownUnknown


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