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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68451: Apr 10th 2017 at 4:52:41 PM

[up][up]It would've been appropriate, in this case. It mostly works in the first Avengers, but in the second, when things are already fairly dark and continue to get darker, everyone keeps on snapping out those one-liners in a way that doesn't ring true to the characters involved, and their journey up to that point.

edited 10th Apr '17 4:57:48 PM by Unsung

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68452: Apr 10th 2017 at 4:55:30 PM

Infinity War set fight scene video with Scarlet Witch.

[up]Right like, after Vision hits Ultron with Mjolnir, I don't immediately need a comedy routine from Thor about how well-balanced the hammer is. One thing I thought Civil War did better was they realized the final fight wasn't really the place for Tony to be yucking it up and making goofy quips.

edited 10th Apr '17 4:56:31 PM by comicwriter

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#68453: Apr 10th 2017 at 4:59:32 PM

Ragnarok looks like it really is going full Jack Kirby.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68454: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:00:10 PM

[up]x4 See, I do like Joss Whedon, but I didn't really want AOU to be a Joss Whedon show, or The Joss Whedon Show, for that matter. With the first Avengers it seemed like he could rein it in, tone it down and have his fun while still working within the constraints laid down by the previous movies. AOU... Not so much.

edited 10th Apr '17 5:04:22 PM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68455: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:04:30 PM

I can't help but find some irony in this. A lot of people criticize the MCU for reigning in their directors too much, but ironically some of the biggest problems with Age of Ultron involve the film not reigning Whedon in enough.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
rjryan3 Since: Mar, 2016
#68456: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:06:12 PM

I'm sorry, but how is cracking a joke once in a while "not taking its premise seriously?"

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68457: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:07:48 PM

Once in a while? Try every five seconds. I think the criticism of the MCU being too joke oriented is a bit overblown but fucking hell, Age of Ultron deserves that criticism times a thousand.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#68458: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:11:27 PM

I've heard it said (in this review of Suicide Squad) that while Executive Meddling frequently does make things worse, usually the film in question was already fundamentally flawed but the people trying to fix it have no experience in story structure or editing, which is how mixed bags snowball into disasters.

Marvel has a half and half record of Executive Meddling either turning films streamlined but generic (The Dark World, Ant-Man) or very tonally strange (Age of Ultron, Iron Man 3).

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68459: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:12:45 PM

I can't help but find some irony in this. A lot of people criticize the MCU for reigning in their directors too much, but ironically some of the biggest problems with Age of Ultron involve the film not reigning Whedon in enough.

Yeah, there's a balance to be had. Also, for me it's not so much about giving the directors total freedom— you do want and need consistency in a franchise of this magnitude— but there's been a slight but growing tendency towards formula, mostly just in terms of automatically including quips and driving toward comedy by default, like making Doctor Strange snarky in a way that I don't think was the best use of the character or Benedict Cumberbatch. I like that the comedy is there, but busting out quips nonstop isn't the only way to include it, and the main character doesn't have to be the primary source thereof— there's a reason why characters have supporting casts, after all.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#68460: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:13:10 PM

For me the root of the problem weren't the jokes, but the fact Whedon (according to Whedon himself) has the bizarre idea that once the Avengers assemble no one can stop them. So Ultron is laughably not a threat to any of the Avengers. His entire plan consists of stalling them for time to put his evil plan at work. Every time they catch up with him he drops like a sack of potatoes.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
rjryan3 Since: Mar, 2016
#68461: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:15:12 PM

I wasn't talking about Age of Ultron. I'm still talking about Thor: Ragnarok, and how apparently having a light-hearted joke at the end of the trailer made the tone "inconsistent".

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68462: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:17:47 PM

I can't help but find some irony in this. A lot of people criticize the MCU for reigning in their directors too much, but ironically some of the biggest problems with Age of Ultron involve the film not reigning Whedon in enough.

Well, Protection from Editors can be its own problem because you don't have people saying "Hey this is stupid, you probably should cut this part out." It was one of the driving the problems with the Star Wars prequels.

....Which is odd because Whedon did have to deal with executive meddling, just presumably not for the dialogue and characterization.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68463: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:20:02 PM

[up][up][up]

...the fuck, Whedon? Seriously, you make a film, hype it up to be like the Emperor Strikes Back, and then instead of ending it with Luke losing his hand, Han frozen in carbonite and held prisoner, and the revelation that Darth Vader was Luke's father the whole time, you end it with Luke not losing his hand, Han busting out of the carbonite, kicking Darth Vader's ass, no dark revelations whatsoever, and a bunch of snarky quips about how kickass the Rebel Alliance are.

edited 10th Apr '17 5:20:09 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#68464: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:27:18 PM

Han busting out of the carbonite, kicking Darth Vader's ass

I would unironically like to see that.

This song needs more love.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68465: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:27:35 PM

It's true. Whedon was really big on the idea that there's nothing external that can stop the Avengers, and that the only thing capable of holding them back were internal problems. And so he also wrote them (or at least, intended to write them) as a group of people who couldn't possibly get along unless they absolutely had to. Banner going "we're not a team, we're a time bomb" in the first movie is him speaking the words of the author.

Imo, that perception does not only the villains, but several of the Avengers themselves a disservice, given that the general theme of them is less "dysfunction" and more Fire-Forged Friends and denying that prevents them from really feeling like they grow together and actually have attachments to each other.

Generally, though, I see a lot of Whedon's problems coming from the fact that he writes/directs movies as if he's writing/directing television: always end things on something snappy/witty, have dysfunction and inter-personal drama move the plot/dynamic, focus on characters as engaging but not-completely-distinct archetypes rather, don't worry so much about the villain or the plot in any given moment (in tv, with the expectation that you can flesh it out over multiple episodes), etc. Even the adding in of the ultimately meaningless relationship for the sake of minor drama in Ultron, if that was his idea, is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from a prime time tv show.

edited 10th Apr '17 5:30:57 PM by KnownUnknown

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68466: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:31:43 PM

What's amusing is aside from literally one scene in the first movie I never really got the sense they weren't a team or couldn't work well together. Any sort of issue they have inevitably gets blown past and the only time it turns into something serious is in Civil War, when outside parties like the government step in and say "Sorry guys, party's over."

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#68467: Apr 10th 2017 at 5:59:55 PM

The approach of "we're not a team we're a timebomb" worked best for the Avengers, because it was actually pretty interesting to see them not getting along and debating between each other across the movie. It makes the movie focus as much on their interactions as on beating the bad guy. In fact the Avengers is almost 80% the Avengers bickering between one another, which makes the final battle all the more satisfying as you really get a sense these guys understand each other now.

It feels a lot more artificial when in Ao U they're bickering mostly so Ultron can stand a ghost of a chance.

I also second Adric's scenario of Han Solo breaking out of the carbonite and kicking Vader's ass. Bonus points if he does so saying "THIS BELONGS IN A MUSEUUUUUM!"

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68468: Apr 10th 2017 at 6:53:59 PM

I meant that to be a commentary on how Age of Ultron deflated its own threat. Instead of Ultron​ serving as a challenge, he gets his ass kicked and any real danger or struggle is left for Civil War because Whedon seemed to forget what he was setting up in the first place.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#68469: Apr 10th 2017 at 7:02:41 PM

That was my biggest issue with the movie, too. Even when watching the movie in theaters, I got bored because at no point did it actually feel like the heroes were in any way threatened by their enemy, they were at worst inconvenienced. Then Pietro died and I got annoyed because I could immediately tell because he was killed off for the sole purpose of artificially raising the stakes, which didn't work because there were no stakes.

My various fanfics.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68470: Apr 10th 2017 at 7:07:23 PM

A bad guy who could control the whole Internet of Things ought to be more intimidating than Ultron was. Meanwhile, I wish they'd found a villain who was already a Joss Whedon bad guy, rather than turning Ultron into one. Seems like a waste in a couple of ways.

edited 10th Apr '17 7:28:08 PM by Unsung

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#68471: Apr 10th 2017 at 7:10:32 PM

Quicksilver was killed after Ultron's army had already been defeated, his super body roasted, and evacuations 99% percent complete.

It was like if Loki had killed Coulson after Hulk already smacked him into the ground.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68473: Apr 10th 2017 at 7:14:11 PM

...the fuck, Whedon? Seriously, you make a film, hype it up to be like the Emperor Strikes Back, and then instead of ending it with Luke losing his hand, Han frozen in carbonite and held prisoner, and the revelation that Darth Vader was Luke's father the whole time, you end it with Luke not losing his hand, Han busting out of the carbonite, kicking Darth Vader's ass, no dark revelations whatsoever, and a bunch of snarky quips about how kickass the Rebel Alliance are.
I mean, he never actually said it was going to be like Empire Strikes Back. In fact, he stated how much he disliked Empire Strikes Back for not being a complete movie — you can look up the interview where he states how much he hates the cliffhanger at the end.

And honestly, I'm not really seeing how Ultron could have beaten the Avengers by attacking them head on. Hell, in the comics, Ultron always had a plan before he attacked the Avengers, often scheming to using other villains (see: the Crimson Cowl).

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#68474: Apr 10th 2017 at 7:25:33 PM

By being written such that doing so wouldn't leave him dominated every time. The fact that, say, his perfect adamantium body went down like a house of cards the moment the Avengers actually started trying to beat it was a writer's decision.

They don't really have him scheme or use his resources either. Ultron's plan is highly inconsistent and it's difficult to tell how planned out his last ditch effort really was. He big plan is to drop what amounts to a big bomb, and beat up the heroes long enough that they can't stop it (preceded by stealing things from places and having fistfights with the Avengers) - he's primarily used as a physical threat in the film, and as such the fact that he is not actually physically threatening to the heroes is a problem.

Having the whole thing come down to the Avengers vs another tin army was also a writer's decision.

edited 10th Apr '17 7:29:55 PM by KnownUnknown

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#68475: Apr 10th 2017 at 7:42:44 PM

Well to be honest, these 6 dudes (who then added three more members for that battle) did stop an entire alien invasion.

I can kinda sorta see where Joss is coming from with this idea of ''when these people are all going in the same direction, everyone else either moves, or is moved).

Plus, I still like Age Of Ultron. Y'all will never make me change my mind. While I acknowledge snarky Ultron was atypical, I still like him too.

One Strip! One Strip!

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