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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#67551: Mar 23rd 2017 at 10:16:17 AM

Garth Ennis's imprint on the character was making Castle a ruthless Blood Knight who loves what he does and is a stone-hearted, emotionless killing machine and there's the usual implication that he kills people not out of any sense of righteousness or vengeance for his family but just because he's a rampaging psychopath who wants a war to fight in. And this characterization sort of became Frank's standard.
Ennis wrote him as a killing machine, yes, but not as emotionless or heartless. Read Up is Down and Black is White or The Slavers — stories that really connect to the core of Ennis's Frank. The trouble is, Ennis's Frank doesn't really display much emotion, so it's really only through inner monologue that you get more depth. ("It was in that moment that I realized something. A dull, blurred feeling that I’d had since this whole mess began, all of a sudden crystal clear. It had been a long, long time since I hated anyone the way I hated them.")

How come?
Bullseye tends to kill Matt's love interests. He killed Elektra and then later on killed Karen Page, too.

edited 23rd Mar '17 10:17:32 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#67552: Mar 23rd 2017 at 10:18:11 AM

I do like Ennis's Blood Knight characterization but I feel like the two shouldn't be mutually exclusive. I've always seen Castle as a dead man walking. He had empathy and emotion and care for other human beings, but it died in the park with his family.

His family was taken from him by random, violent crime and so he declared war on the abstract concept of random, violent crime. He's not doing it necessarily to help anyone or out of any sense of altruism, but because it's all he can do. He's a soldier going through the motions of existing now that his reason for living is gone.

Ennis wrote a scene that I felt was perfect Punisher. It's about a recurring nightmare Frank has in which he's a grandfather and celebrating a birthday with his family. His son and daughter adore him, his grandchildren are great, and his wife loves him as much as she ever has. And that's it. What makes it a nightmare is that every night, he has to wake up and lose them all over again.

It's just a shame the rest of his characterization didn't quite match up.

edited 23rd Mar '17 10:20:46 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#67553: Mar 23rd 2017 at 10:22:43 AM

[up][up]

I really hope if they bring Bullseye in that they don't use him to fridge somebody. At least Elektra came back from the dead like usual.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#67554: Mar 23rd 2017 at 10:26:29 AM

"HEADS UP KINGPIN, I'M A DEAD MAN WALKING
CAN'T HIDE FROM ME, I'M A DEAD MAN WALKING
AND THERE'S YOUR FINAL BELL
ITS ONE MORE DANCE AND THEN FAREWELL
CHEEK TO CHEEK IN HELL WITH A DEAD MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
WALKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING!!"

"Are you going to... dance with me?"

"Yeah, the hemp fandango. But with bullets."

edited 23rd Mar '17 10:27:05 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#67555: Mar 23rd 2017 at 10:33:40 AM

But has he ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight, hmmm?

edited 23rd Mar '17 10:34:07 AM by Nightwire

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#67556: Mar 23rd 2017 at 10:35:53 AM

He interacted with some devils. I don't know if he danced with them.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#67557: Mar 23rd 2017 at 10:36:41 AM

Ya know, as much as I liked Owsley in season one, I kinda wish they'd bring a more comic accurate version of the Owl as an enemy sometime.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#67558: Mar 23rd 2017 at 10:37:16 AM

Frank eventually convincing himself that he was always a killer deep down fits a version who's been doing this so long that he has to find some way to keep going, because there's no way he could stop, and he has nothing else left. I wonder if that didn't come out of a further exploration of the Saint of Killers' mindset.

I don't think Karen and Matt have chemistry so much as...scars they can compare. They both have these deep wounds, which Foggy doesn't, so far as we can tell. They gravitate toward each other because of that, despite not necessarily seeming all that compatible otherwise. They're looking for someone who might understand— the devil's inside them both. Though as Matt's relationship with Elektra tends to show, what they want probably isn't what they need or should have.

I'm gonna miss Leland. I don't yet, but him and Wesley brought out some interesting sides of the Kingpin. At least his son's off somewhere. Waiting in the wings, hopefully.

edited 30th Apr '17 9:13:47 PM by Unsung

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#67559: Mar 23rd 2017 at 11:07:36 AM

Karen/Matt is my least favourite "romance" in the MCU by a long shot. Honestly, I buy Thor/Jane more than those two, and THAT is saying something. (The rain scene...shudder....the Daredevil MOVIE did the concept better).

[up] That is not what they show on screen considering that Karen mostly wants to hide the scars she carries. The idea is that Karen is "stability" while Elektra is "adventure"...the concept itself is one of those tropes which is nearly never sexist, but in this case, the writers didn't even seem aware that is might be problematic, and it shows.

The only reason to watch Daredevil Season 2 past episode 4 is Foggy. I really love all the legal stuff which is going on, the only way it would be even better would be if Matt was actually around for it instead of acting like a dick all the time (I really, really don't like Matt in season 2 - but I actually don't like him that much in season 1 either, what I like is the kid version of him).

edited 23rd Mar '17 11:11:09 AM by Swanpride

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#67560: Mar 23rd 2017 at 11:31:49 AM

I liked Matt/Elektra way better than Matt/Karen, and that is even while being aware that being with Elektra was really not a good idea for Matt.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#67561: Mar 23rd 2017 at 11:33:56 AM

I liked Matt/Cardboard better than Matt/Karen.

Matt and Karen are just another case of a romance that's so busy trying to be romance tropes that it forgets to actually spend any time exploring why these two even should be a couple in the first place. All drama, no fuzzies.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#67562: Mar 23rd 2017 at 11:35:12 AM

I liked Foggy and Karen. They seemed like they at least enjoyed spending time together

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#67563: Mar 23rd 2017 at 11:37:59 AM

Yeah, same here.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#67564: Mar 23rd 2017 at 11:44:15 AM

Add me to that list as well.

As a shipper, one thing that I find very important is that before you try to convince me that two characters are in love with each other, you must first convince me that they even like each other. A thing I need to believe if I'm going to buy a romance is that if romance was not on the table, these two characters would still be personally invested in each other's lives. That they would have a strong friendship even if they weren't porking offscreen.

Belligerent Sexual Tension can die in a fire.

edited 23rd Mar '17 11:44:25 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#67565: Mar 23rd 2017 at 11:55:35 AM

That's what I'm saying, though— I can believe that what draws Matt and Karen together is pretty much only their guilt, drawn from different sources but in some way each immediately familiar to the other, that they care about each other but aren't really in love. I'm not sure the show knows that's a bad idea or not at this point— Season 2 muddies the water considerably, as a lot of series portray that sense of need as desirable, as 'real' love, but I'm not totally sure we're supposed to see it in a positive light— just look at what it's done to Frank, and look at Matt's track record this season. Revealing his secret identity to Karen is a selfish act on Matt's part, taken in a moment of desperation. I doubt that ends well for either of them.

edited 23rd Mar '17 11:56:25 AM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#67566: Mar 23rd 2017 at 11:57:40 AM

I just reached the graveyard scene...

This is why they chose Bernthal to play the Punisher. This entire damn scene justifies him being on the show playing the character.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#67567: Mar 23rd 2017 at 12:03:06 PM

Karen has more romantic chemistry with a deranged vigilante killer, an older married newspaper editor who is her boss, and a slimy Kitchen Irish mobster goon than she does Matt. I hate all romance subplots on principle but the whole Matt/Karen thing was easily one of the worst yet. I'd even call it the worst part of Daredevil Season 2. Thankfully they eventually just drop it outright, but it's done in a very cringey way.

I'm going to take a controversial position here and say I didn't really care much for Punisher's diner talk, either. Came across as supporting abusive relationships in a "you have to stick with them even if they hurt you" way.

The only ship I support is Anatoly/Car Door. Anatoly gave real good head, and Car Door slammed him all night long.

edited 23rd Mar '17 12:06:34 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#67568: Mar 23rd 2017 at 12:14:43 PM

And I just got done with episode four, gonna take a brief break. That scene in the rain with Karen and Matt...no...just...no...It was stupid. Purely stupid.

I know that Elektra kind of signals the season's decline, but is her actress any good?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#67570: Mar 23rd 2017 at 12:19:33 PM

I liked her actress. Its mostly a shame that all the agency she had in the comics was surgically extracted.

edited 23rd Mar '17 12:19:41 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#67571: Mar 23rd 2017 at 12:21:09 PM

Elektra's pretty great. Some writing issues toward the end, but her actress does a great job.

To be honest, I wouldn't say the show "goes to shit". Its back half is definitely not as good as the first half and has a lot of problems, but it's still entertaining and a good time-waster if you're bored. It just becomes sort of a plotless action flick, basically.

edited 23rd Mar '17 12:23:58 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#67572: Mar 23rd 2017 at 12:21:14 PM

Yeah. Elektra is poorly written but well played.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#67573: Mar 23rd 2017 at 12:23:09 PM

Elektra is tons of fun. Easily the best part of the back half.

The only ship I support is Anatoly/Car Door. Anatoly gave real good head, and Car Door slammed him all night long.

And this is why it's a terrible idea to go on here while in class. So hard to suppress my laughter at this.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#67574: Mar 23rd 2017 at 12:24:58 PM

I disagree concerning Castle's speech. It's him pointing out that very few romances are the bland idyllic coffee shop AU's that litter fanfiction. You love people faults and all, and even the arguments, the annoyances are part of that experience.

Besides, the guy who takes baseball bats to peddlers of child porn probably wouldn't support any sort of abuse.

edited 23rd Mar '17 12:25:33 PM by Beatman1

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#67575: Mar 23rd 2017 at 12:30:29 PM

[up] That.

Love isn't about fixing your partner's flaws. It's about still loving your partner despite them. It's a good speech.

The only place it falls flat is that Karen and Matt are really a terrible couple. Just...so bad.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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