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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#67301: Mar 19th 2017 at 9:59:42 AM

[up][up]I doubt it. Like she said, it was something that was attractive to her because you usually don't see superhero movies take big risks like that. ASM 2 did end up being a Franchise Killer, but before the box office receipts were in, it was intended to kill her for real and still continue the franchise. Plus it's a dramatic bit to get to play as an actor, so I can see that being appealing. I think you're overthinking it a bit.

Bah, Sony's useless...

It's actually straight out of the comics.

edited 19th Mar '17 10:01:51 AM by comicwriter

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#67302: Mar 19th 2017 at 10:47:04 AM

Two important things to note:

  • Brian Michael Bendis, the author of Ultimate Spider-Man, doesn't really like the symbiotes very much. So he made them very different. In his universe, they're basically a sentient cure for cancer cloned from Peter's dad that went horribly wrong. His Carnage doesn't even have a host; it's just pure cancer-cure goo.
  • Bendis killed off Gwen for no other reason than because she died in the 616, then immediately regretted it and spoke about how he felt like it was a complete waste of a good character. So he used the Carnage cancer glop as an awkward, kinda forced way to write her back to life.

It was weird. Something about how, like, the Carnage glop had imprinted Gwen genetically when it killed her, causing it to congeal into a Gwen clone or some shit.

edited 19th Mar '17 10:48:25 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#67303: Mar 19th 2017 at 10:48:48 AM

Little thought I had, speaking of Gwen: How did her original death in the comics work so effectively while other attempts to do the same largely failed?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#67304: Mar 19th 2017 at 10:57:48 AM

@Tobias Drake: Wait, so Ultimate Carnage.....became a clone of Gwen? Or was it just Carnage but it looked Gwen sometimes?

edited 19th Mar '17 10:58:07 AM by higherbrainpattern

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#67305: Mar 19th 2017 at 11:03:10 AM

IIRC, it became a clone of Gwen who has the superpower to turn into Carnage, and then shortly after that, Venom sucked out the Carnage glop and turned her into just a normal clone of Gwen.

Like I said, it was really forced.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#67306: Mar 19th 2017 at 11:04:15 AM

Basically. It had absorbed her and her mind and "essence" or whatever survived inside of the symbiote.

Little thought I had, speaking of Gwen: How did her original death in the comics work so effectively while other attempts to do the same largely failed?

Back when it first happened it was genuinely shocking and executed well. This is before Stuffed into the Fridge was as pervasive in comics as it ultimately ended up being, so the the trope hadn't yet been branded as tired and misogynistic.

edited 19th Mar '17 11:06:16 AM by comicwriter

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#67307: Mar 19th 2017 at 11:06:47 AM

There are multiple ways to examine it:

  • It hadn't really been done before, the original Death of Gwen Stacy was shocking while now the character is halfway expected to die out of tradition.
  • It was a moment when the hero completely and utterly failed to save the girl, it wasn't a matter of being too late to stop it.
  • The girl was in danger because the villain was trying to specifically target the hero, it wasn't pure happenstance or the girl just happened to be nearby for use as leverage.
  • The circumstances made it unclear if she was already dead before the fight or if Spider-Man's very attempt to rescue her is what killed her.
  • It caused a ripple effect in Spider-Man stories and they stuck to their guns for a long time.

The reason ASM 2 failed was because the entire goblin fight happened after they resolve the Electro fight, giving us Ending Fatigue. The actual depiction of the event was also really drawn out and dramatic, while also not giving us the ambiguity of "Was she alive when she was falling?" And the aftermath was truncated to a Time Skip in the epilogue, giving us further Ending Fatigue while also distracting us with the Rhino fight.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#67308: Mar 19th 2017 at 12:09:11 PM

Yeah, they really should have held off on the Harry-as-Goblin and Gwen-dies stuff for a third movie, but Sony was just too desperate to stuff all their franchise set-up into that movie.

PincerMove Since: Feb, 2017
#67309: Mar 19th 2017 at 12:39:25 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up]Not really. It's not something that comes up often given how in the scope of all movies, resurrection is pretty rare. However, people like Harrison Ford usually make the same request. An actor is focused on creating a characters arc and having it end definitively. You can't do that if the story just goes on forever.

[up][up][up][up][up][up] Because it was the first. A superhero failed to save someone, someone vital to them. It completely rewrote the stakes in a medium where everyone knew that nothing would ever happen to the good guys. Also, it's the fact that Spider-Man killed her by misusing his powers.

PincerMove Since: Feb, 2017
#67310: Mar 19th 2017 at 12:44:21 PM

[up][up]most responses I see say the opposite - Electro should a been cut, and let us just have a movie about Harry's fear of his own mortality destroying his relationship with Peter, and the death of Gwen.

I also still say showing her be still alive made it better. The expression in her eyes really adds to it in a way ambiguity would have just taken away from.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#67311: Mar 19th 2017 at 1:36:51 PM

Hey if you like you can argue the point with Emma Stone, I guess. tongue

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#67312: Mar 19th 2017 at 1:44:26 PM

Well, I'll add my voice to those saying that I would have preferred they keep the focus on Electro and the Rhino to yet another adaptation of the Osbornes. Maybe it was too early for Gwen to die, maybe not— Peter just got her father killed in the previous movie, and the second movie was too rushed for Gwen's death to have the full impact it needed. Maybe you need a Goblin to kill Gwen, I'm not convinced, but if so, then having Harry suddenly reunite with Peter, watch his dad die, mutate and go crazy, and then kill Gwen Stacy— that's too much for one movie. The franchise hadn't earned that.

edited 19th Mar '17 1:51:22 PM by Unsung

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#67313: Mar 19th 2017 at 1:49:23 PM

Little thought I had, speaking of Gwen: How did her original death in the comics work so effectively while other attempts to do the same largely failed?

In 1973, no one expected Spider-Man's girlfriend to die, but since then, death has become Gwen Stacy's defining character trait. At this point, Gwen not dying would be more unexpected.

Make mine Marvel.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#67314: Mar 19th 2017 at 1:52:55 PM

I think what puzzles me is that Gwen's death would normally fit the Stuffed in the Fridge trope, but even the page for that particular trope says it isn't really an example.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#67315: Mar 19th 2017 at 1:56:38 PM

[up][up][up]That's pretty much exactly it. I have problems with the Raimi trilogy but they actually took the time to spread out Harry's fall from grace across three films, stupid Deus ex Machina resolution notwithstanding.

The level of Conflict Ball and Idiot Ball it took to turn Harry from Peter's BFF to his archnemesis in the span of a single movie was quite astounding.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#67316: Mar 19th 2017 at 1:59:03 PM

[up][up]I think it's because traditional fridgings are done to cause pain for someone to angst, get over, and then never speak of again but in this case it caused shockwaves through the entire comic for years.

edited 19th Mar '17 1:59:39 PM by LordVatek

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comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#67317: Mar 19th 2017 at 2:03:10 PM

Gwen was also around for much longer and had development as a character outside of "And then the villain killed her to piss off the hero," which is not the case for a lot of fridgings. The Trope Namer is a good example because GL's girlfriend pretty much existed just so that she could be strangled to death and stuffed into the fridge a few issues after her debut.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#67318: Mar 19th 2017 at 2:04:18 PM

I'm pretty sure it is textbook fridging.

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KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#67319: Mar 19th 2017 at 2:07:51 PM

It seems to me that a lot of the examples in comics (and perhaps in other areas of pop culture) are deliberately attempting to ape Gwen's death, though.

Oh God! Natural light!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#67320: Mar 19th 2017 at 2:08:29 PM

Fridging has a pretty specific definition according to the TVT page but a lot of people use the term in situations where a female character dies and the hero gets angst from it.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#67321: Mar 19th 2017 at 2:10:15 PM

Fridging is actually referring to a very specific scenario in which a villain kills a female character and leaves her for the hero to find in order to motivate him further to hunt the villain down. Gwen Stacy's death don' fit because the Green Goblin threw her down more to distract Spider-man, and the one who actually causes her neck to snap is Spider-man himself, consequently he mostly blames himself and not the villain.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#67322: Mar 19th 2017 at 2:10:15 PM

[up]x4 It is now, but it wasn't at the time, at least not in the same way— it's a problem because it represents a larger trend of objectifying women, not because no villain can ever kill a hero's love interest ever again. That version of Gwen, the Goblin, and Spider-Man had earned that moment— it wasn't cheaply done, it was a culmination of events and had consequences beyond that moment. Most Fridgings don't.

[up]I think he probably blames the Goblin as well as himself. I mean, little bit? Never mind, you said 'mostly'.

edited 19th Mar '17 2:13:23 PM by Unsung

PincerMove Since: Feb, 2017
#67323: Mar 19th 2017 at 2:22:44 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up][up]But thats kind of it, the stupid Deus Ex Machina really does cripple that character. Hell, even without the worlds slowest butler, all the character change comes from a mistake. Its all wholly incidental and should be cleaned up in a few seconds. Hell, it shoulda been cleared up anyway when he found out his father was a supervillain, that Spider-Man was saving New York when he killed Norman Osborne, and that when his father told him he loved him it was just a lie. In Amazing Spider-Man 2, the character change actually does follow reality - he's Peters friend, and they have some pretty genuine chemistry, but you can still tell easily that there is something off about him, that if push comes to shove he would really go down a dark path and end up doing anything to save himself. You could not see anyone coming to him and telling him just a single sentence that completely flips his character motivation 180.

PincerMove Since: Feb, 2017
#67324: Mar 19th 2017 at 2:25:20 PM

And yes, the crucial element to the whole thing is that Spider-Mans webbing is what killed her. As they say, it ain't the fall that kill you, its the sudden stop at the end. Thats why I dismiss people saying the ambiguity is necessary. Instead of what killed her being the villain just trying to get a rise out of the perfect infalliable male hero, its the heroes failure that killed them.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#67325: Mar 19th 2017 at 2:26:05 PM

It's still technically an example if only because the definition is rather broad, love interest killed for hero to angst over. But the original story was the culmination of a story arc, not the instigation, and Gwen was not a girlfriend he picked up in the previous story arc, but one of his most prominent supporting characters. Her death is actually rather similar to Barbara Gordon being shot or Jason Todd killed.

ASM 2 botched it primarily because Peter was already trying to keep his distance because he feared It's Not You, It's My Enemies and she responds with "I do what I want" sass. Then she gets killed by an enemy trying to just hurt the hero, proving the original fear completely correct. So he spends the movie angsting about that happening, and spends the epilogue angsting because it happened, diluting any character growth.


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