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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#67176: Mar 14th 2017 at 11:41:58 AM

The common theme in most of the negative reviews is also that all the corporate CEO stuff is just really boring. The problem is less "People are now predisposed to hate rich white CE Os" and more "Nobody watches superhero shows about kung-fu superheroes for the corporate intrigue drama."

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#67177: Mar 14th 2017 at 11:56:01 AM

[up]Which is why I'm hoping in Episode 7 and onwards, judging by the bait of hope, is that the Kung Fu comes out in force.

Although knowing the reactions so far, watch as Fu Manchu really is the main villain (He's canonically part of Marvel through Shang Chi. They could do it.)

PincerMove Since: Feb, 2017
#67178: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:01:16 PM

So is this Hulk level mediocre or genuinely bad?

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#67179: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:03:10 PM

[up]The picture is incomplete since the reviews only had the first six episodes. Most reviews say "mediocre but the last episode drops seeds for something that could make a compelling second half if they stick the landing."

If they do, it'll be the opposite of some of the other Netflix Marvel shows (most notably Daredevil Season 2) with incredibly strong starts and a somewhat puttering finish.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#67180: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:08:52 PM

Daredevil S1 is probably the one one that was strong from start to finish.

JJ, DD 2, and LC all had some petering out toward the end. Still love 'em, though.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#67181: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:10:02 PM

Yeah I'd welcome something that flips the formula around and starts weak only to end strong. If Luke Cage had started with Diamondback and worked its way up to Cottonmouth I'd be a happier man.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#67182: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:11:11 PM

I think all the Netflix shows suffered a bit from stretching things out to 13 episodes. If they had been compressed to 8 or 10 they might have worked better. It's one of the reasons I'm excited for Defenders.

edited 14th Mar '17 12:11:22 PM by Kostya

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#67183: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:11:18 PM

[up][up]I want this to stick the landing so bad, and I think they can.

But Finn Jones needs to shut the hell up.

edited 14th Mar '17 12:11:31 PM by Beatman1

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#67184: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:12:14 PM

See, I'm worried about Defenders only being 8. I don't want it to suffer compression issues.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#67185: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:17:34 PM

(He's canonically part of Marvel through Shang Chi. They could do it.)

They lost the rights long ago, which is why Shang's dad is never referred to by that name anymore.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#67186: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:23:15 PM

[up]They re-acquired the rights in 2015 to republish Master of Kung Fu.

HOWEVER, that same year they re-launched a Master of Kung Fu series which retconned his origin to no longer involve Fu Manchu. So I believe the authorization was just for reprints.

The sheer tone deaf hilarity of them getting the rights to Fu Manchu for this series back would be...amazing though. For all the wrong reasons.

edited 14th Mar '17 12:24:22 PM by Beatman1

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#67187: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:24:21 PM

I feel like because Diamondback was so disappointing people started overestimating how effective Cottonmouth was as a villain. That he was a goon with delusions of grandeur who wasn't Big Bad material is part of the point of his character.

Cottonmouth was so good because they set out to create a Starter Villain and did an amazing job of making a character that filled that niche. Diamondback wasn't, because they set out to create a "better class of criminal" villain and didn't accomplish much but creating a narmy incompetent who dithered the plot.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#67188: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:25:51 PM

[up]Cottonmouth was also played by the 2017 Best Supporting Actor.

The thing is, with Jessica Jones, you had one great villainous presence the entire time. Daredevil followed up from the previous series reintroducing Nobu. Luke, the disconnect was greater.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#67190: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:28:33 PM

Someone in this thread once came up with the idea of replacing Fu Manchu with the real Mandarin for Shang-Chi's origin story. That could be a way around the rights issues but it doesn't solve the Yellow Peril stuff though.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#67191: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:30:12 PM

No one really has any illusions about Cottonmouth's effectiveness but rather by how he was a much better villain in terms of theme, personality, depth and relationship with Luke Cage.

The effectiveness is ultimately irrelevant. Took a Level in Badass is a time-honored trope after all.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#67192: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:31:00 PM

I wouldn't trade the Cottonmouth we got for anything. I wish Mahershala Ali could still be on the show, but the way Mariah supplanted him was perfect. I mostly just wish Diamondback would've just gotten out of the way, stayed in the background being mysterious and imposing instead of interrupting Mariah's Start of Darkness.

The scenery-devouring Bible-quoting maniac we ended up with was just the wrong villain for the point in the show when he arrived. A wild-eyed psychopath out of a Jerry Bruckheimer movie from the '90s might've worked as a One-Episode Wonder under the circumstances, but he just takes over and the show goes off the rails for three or four episodes.

edited 14th Mar '17 12:41:59 PM by Unsung

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#67193: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:32:07 PM

Meh, I'm fine being the only person who liked Diamondback.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#67194: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:40:52 PM

I actually look forward to the corporate stuff...I don't care what anyone says, this can be very compelling. Hogarth as a shark? Count me in. I mean, I like Matt and Foggy the best when they are lawyers, too - which is a bone of contention for me...in the first season, there was barely any lawyering after the first episode, in the second season there was a lot of great lawyer scenes, but Matt was absent for most of them, and when he was around, he sucked...I know that people are all over Daredevil season 1 and 2, but both were a little bit of a let down for me. Still good, but less than I wanted and the fight scenes didn't really make up for it....they were actually a little bit boring at places. Which is why I am not all that worried about the lack of fight scenes in the early episodes of Iron Fist, I want to see the corporate stuff. Granted, if the corporate stuff is badly done, well, then you have a problem.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#67195: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:44:50 PM

Having it be there is one thing. Having it dominate the show, that seems like a miscalculation. I guess we'll have to see for ourselves, though.

Yeah, I was and am looking forward to Carrie-Anne Moss in this. Fingers crossed.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#67196: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:52:53 PM

One thing I noticed about the Netflix shows is that they address a different kind of audience each, which might be the explanation why everyone ranks them differently....but there are a couple of problems which keep cropping up. I think Luke Cage is the worst offender regarding the pacing issues, with a number of episodes kind of slogging along until the big finale, but they all had that problem that they started strong and then took a slight slump followed by a rushed finale. Daredevil is the worst offender in the "bland lead" category. Honestly, when the reviews keep claiming that Charlie Cox is actually doing a good job, I keep wondering what show they are watching. Granted, a lot is the writing. I like the kid version of him, the adult version is yawn-worthy. Daredevil is also the worst offender when it comes to the romantic plot tumour - the Karen v Elektra stuff was just terrible. Of all the shows so far Jessica Jones is the most balanced one overall, with a great villain and an interesting heroine, but the subject matter makes this show such a hard watch that "enjoyment" isn't exactly what I would connect with it. That's not really a dis, though.....

Anyway, reading the criticism for Iron Fist I kind of felt that it was mostly a bucket list for problems which were there all along...uncomfortable portrayal of Asians? Check! Hard to connect with lead? Check! (Jessica is the exception so far, at least from my Po V). Pacing issues? Check!

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#67197: Mar 14th 2017 at 12:56:30 PM

From my POV the harder to connect protagonist thus far is Luke Cage. None of them are "man this guy is boring who cares about him" but Luke Cage is, to me, the least interesting. Jessica Jones is a patchwork of broken heroism and trauma upon trauma and Matt is a Blood Knight struggling with his inner demons whilst suffering from a massive martyr complex. Luke Cage is...a good man trying to change his world around. Which is great, but for me, the other two are more interesting.

Granted, I'm biased, because Matt's struggle between his Catholicism and his inner desire to beat people to a living pulp resonate with me.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#67198: Mar 14th 2017 at 1:01:49 PM

[up] You are in a way right...Luke is more boring, but Matt is more annoying to me. With Luke I don't necessarily mind the straight up hero approach, I just wish he were more emotional at places. But I really, really hate the "tortured soul" narrative in Matt, mostly because he isn't consequent about it but also because he creates a lot of his problems himself.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#67199: Mar 14th 2017 at 1:05:02 PM

Each protagonist is a blank slate to some extent— someone on whom the reader projects themselves. It works to whatever extent their surroundings resonate with you. It's not going to be a good fit for everybody.

Most people create a lot of their own problems. The world's a complicated place, especially if you're going to try and commit yourself to multiple, often conflicting codes and loyalties: is Matt going to be the vigilante, the lawyer, the good Catholic? Son, friend, lover, soldier? The city the hero needs, or the one it deserves? How do you choose?

edited 14th Mar '17 1:06:20 PM by Unsung

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#67200: Mar 14th 2017 at 1:51:04 PM

Luke's thing in Jessica Jones and in the first part of his own series is that he doesn't want to be the hero. He just wants to keep his head down.

When he does become a hero he does it in a very straightforward way which makes it easy for people to smear his name.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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