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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#65626: Dec 10th 2016 at 12:10:38 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
deuteragonist Since: Dec, 2013
#65627: Dec 10th 2016 at 12:42:11 AM

Okay, I apologize if I may have confused some people on this thread earlier with my comment but here's my thing, Miles is not better than Peter Parker. They are just different characters. They have different appeals, different character concepts, different backstories, different responsibilities, and different dynamics with other characters. Miles is a great character because while he is a Legacy Character; he takes someone else's legacy and makes it his own. He inherits Peter's world and makes the lives of all his grieving loved ones better.

Unlike Peter, he's very much a Reluctant Hero. He also seems to freak out about his problems more than Peter does. Also, while Peter's morality stems a lot from his guilt; Miles just does the heroic thing because he feels that he has to. He's also not really an angsty, introverted, awkward teen like Peter. He's definitely a little more popular. And he has more of that teen feel as many of superheroic friends are teens as well. Peter was much more of a lonely character; whereas Miles is rarely alone.

Just a side note though, as far as Ganke being named Ned Steels...isn't that the Hobgoblin?tongue Either way, I'm not going to get completely bent out of shape about it just yet. There's no reason to; it's not even out yet. And even then, the movie looks good. Just wish they could have been more original, that's all.

edited 10th Dec '16 12:44:14 AM by deuteragonist

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#65628: Dec 10th 2016 at 12:50:16 AM

Miles is popular in part because he was an Affirmative-Action Legacy to an absolutely iconic character and managed to be surprisingly well written and distinct. He occupied his own little corner of the Marvel universe for a time. It helped he originated in the Marvel Ultimate Universe rather than the mainline, as fans tend to be more open to changes in an Ultimate Universe rather than a straight adaptation.

rjryan3 Since: Mar, 2016
#65629: Dec 10th 2016 at 1:43:58 AM

@R Bluefish: Like how you were annoyed by the initial rumor that some white kid was going to play Ganke Lee? Oh, yeah. You definitely waited for more news to come out, what with you refusing to listen to people saying that that rumor has been debunked. And how you were so even-handed when you misread the director's dismissal of that rumor and accused him of "not getting it".

And, now look at you! Now that we have full evidence that the Ganke Lee-expy is being played by an Asian kid, instead of admitting that you were wrong and that your fears were unfounded, you're already preparing yourself for the news that the MCU version of Spider-Man is actually a whitewash Miles Morales with Peter Parker's name slapped on. Look! You already made a straw-man discussion between the poor-trotted fans and the greedy, racist Marvel!

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65630: Dec 10th 2016 at 2:20:00 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJrr3jM6rdU

Sorry, I can't open the markup help for some reason, so I have no idea how to embed this....it's a very interesting vid which analyses how the action in The Winter Soldier is staged. I still think that the Russo's should do a few cuts less in some of the action scenes, but the analysis makes some really great points while it works so well overall, by discussing camera angles aso.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65631: Dec 10th 2016 at 4:37:57 AM

I doubt Attah will be Miles because he doesn't have any Latino heritage and when it's a big part of Miles' character and backstory. One of Bendis' (the guy who created Miles) more recent issues explicitly points this out with a nod at the fourth wall about how Miles doesn't want to just be seen as "Black Spider-Man" and wants his Latino half to be acknowledged better. It's clumsily handled since Bendis isn't black or Latino himself, but it's a little more nuanced than its detractors usually give it credit for and not an outright Take That! against representation like they often Quote Mine it into being.

It's still possible they'll go the lazy route and cast an African American actor for Miles without making sure he has Latino heritage since due to Public Medium Ignorance most people do only see his black half, whether Bendis wants it or not. But even if the Creative Committee are out of the movies, whoever's making a Miles film will probably have Bendis on individually as a consultant and he'll likely push for it.

Likewise Attah's character is listed as Abraham on the casting sheet, and it seems unlikely that it's Miles under a pseudonym. I agree that Glover is likely to play Aaron Davis/the Prowler, but Miles is unlikely to be adapted this early.

Anyway I hope those people who bought into the whole "Michael Barbieri will be a whitewashed Ganke" rumor wholesale and reblogged, retweeted, or thoughtpieced incessantly about it even after Watt's debunking without ever once displaying enough proper skepticism to go back and actually doublecheck the rumors or view them with a grain of salt at any point are, frankly, eating crow. There's being properly skeptical and then there's being a pseudoskeptic who tries to pass off their confirmation bias as the genuine article.

[up] R Bluefish apologized eventually. That he did at all makes him far better than most such people who have a pathological case of Never My Fault and believe that to ever apologize is a form of weakness that shows you have a lack of commitment to social justice ideals, despite constantly demanding everyone around them to apologize and that even if they do so, it's worse than having not apologized at all unless it's in the most humiliating and self-debasing fashion.

To give you an idea of what kind of Never My Fault we're usually dealing with, look at the screaming match over the Homecoming trailer from Tony haters. Their argument for the hate is "Tony has a Lack of Empathy when it comes to anyone other than himself (though it's really because he hurt my husbando)", so of course now that this trailer is showing him being nice to someone for once, rather that acknowledge their stated assessment was incorrect, not only do they just hate him more (because he's a hypocrite for being friendly to Peter but not their husbandos), but they also now accuse Marvel of being Evil Like Tony for trying to whitewash a villainous man.

Throw in some Fan Hater stuff where they accuse any fan of Tony in this day and age of being racists who only like him because he's a straight white man and if they weren't bigoted they'd realize what a monster he actually is. Even though in a lot of cases the husbandos that they're so protective of and who motivate their hatred towards Tony are also straight (as much as they insist otherwise) white men. And if you try to point this out they'll find some excuse to avoid having to deal with any cognitive dissonance.

No offense to the people in these threads who don't like Tony though, you guys have all been cool about it.

edited 10th Dec '16 8:10:28 AM by AlleyOop

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#65632: Dec 10th 2016 at 4:43:11 AM

Ned Leeds was a Hobgoblin but he was really just a brainwashed patsy for Roderick Kingsley

The production history of the Hobgoblin is kind of fascinating, in a sort of train wreck way.

Ned was also a suspect for being the Green Goblin

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#65633: Dec 10th 2016 at 4:48:40 AM

That might be kind of an interesting arc for MCU!Ned to go through.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#65634: Dec 10th 2016 at 5:31:44 AM

Of course, it's an established fact that anyone who's personally involved with Peter Parker in any capacity is doomed to misery, suffering, and/or death.

edited 10th Dec '16 5:32:17 AM by Nightwire

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#65635: Dec 10th 2016 at 8:00:35 AM

Likewise Attah's character is listed as Abraham on the casting sheet
He's listed as Abraham because the actor's first name is Abraham. There's other actors who only have their first name listed.

But yeah, I think you are probably right that it's too early to introduce Miles. Although I'm not sure if they did, the filmmakers would care about getting a half-black, half-Latino actor to play him, since traditionally Hollywood isn't quite that sensitive in terms of ethnicity.

MapleSamurai Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#65636: Dec 10th 2016 at 9:46:51 AM

If they ever use Miles in the movies, I kinda want them to give him a different superhero name if they wanna still use Peter as Spider-Man. Compromise if they can.

Perhaps give him the Scarlet Spider identity? Sure, that would mean we probably wouldn't get a Clone Saga adaptation, but that's just a happy side effect. wink

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#65637: Dec 10th 2016 at 10:32:29 AM

I have trying think of a way to carefully word this, but as a POC, do want Miles for the sake of diversity or because you believe he can stand on his own?

Deuteragonist is absolutely correct - the two are not mutually exclusive. I like Miles as a character and think he can easily stand on his own, and I also think (despite Bendis's tone-deafness) that he very much provides a net positive when it comes to racial representation.

Which is why I would really hope that if they ever do introduce him, they cast an actual Afro-Latino actor in the role, rather than erasing that half of his heritage. Afro-Latinx people already struggle bitterly for representation, and casting an actor with no Latino heritage as their most prominent superhero would just be salt in that particular wound.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#65638: Dec 10th 2016 at 10:34:24 AM

With how Hollywood likes to pair up black and Hispanic people in their romantic movies, you'd think there'd be more Afro-Latino representation. Apparently it's a thing that Hollywood usually goes for African-Latino couples over African-Caucasian couples in some movies.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65639: Dec 10th 2016 at 10:55:53 AM

I'd say there's a decent amount of Afro-Latin actors when it comes to the business side of things (e.g. Zoe Saldana and Rosario Dawson), it's more that the representation fail comes the characters they play only being one or the other in-universe. So a bit of the other way around from Miles' situation, and hence why as hamhanded as it was, Bendis was actually making a good point.

Also to clarify for people who don't know about Miles' backstory, he's Afro Latino in the sense that he's a biracial child of a non-Latino black father and a non-black (Puerto Rican) Latina mother, as opposed to someone with parents of primarily black ancestry who came from a Latin country. His father took on his mother's last name when they married, hence why he goes by Morales and not Davis.

edited 10th Dec '16 10:59:34 AM by AlleyOop

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#65640: Dec 10th 2016 at 11:11:26 AM

Why not just cut out the middleman and make Miles Peter's best friend?

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#65641: Dec 10th 2016 at 11:14:15 AM

Turning a standalone hero into the legacy holder's sidekick will probably create more issues than it solves.

I'm still hoping for alternate universes like that one poster about Stark's science exhibition seemed to hint a few months ago.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65642: Dec 10th 2016 at 11:38:12 AM

It's a double edged sword, as while alternate universes would be cool - and is a way to introduce Miles if the writers don't want to do the legwork of actually introducing him as a character in the main MCU - the Spider-Man film series is not really the place where the concept ought to be introduced and explored.

edited 10th Dec '16 11:39:19 AM by KnownUnknown

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#65643: Dec 10th 2016 at 11:42:54 AM

I think they wanted Peter Parker's high school friend to be someone without a lot of baggage. Making him Miles would mean the audience would be constantly expecting him to gain superpowers, which could cause issues if they weren't planning on pulling that trigger in the movie.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#65644: Dec 10th 2016 at 11:45:01 AM

How would you actually determine whether an actor is half-black/half-Latino, though? In terms of physical characteristics, Latino is already a pretty nebulous category; as part of a mixed-race genetic makeup, it's all but impossible to pinpoint based on visible clues. You can request an actor have certain physical traits, since their appearance is part of their job, but actually making inquiries into their ethnic background seems like it would be an HR nightmare.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#65645: Dec 10th 2016 at 11:56:10 AM

I think they went with Ned because he's a famous red herring and suffering magnet.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65646: Dec 10th 2016 at 11:56:53 AM

In Miles' case it's fairly clear cut, as he's half Latino on his mother's side, half black on his father's side. So look for actors who have both recent mestizo and African ancestry, in the same way that someone looking for a half-Asian, half-white actor can audition Chloe Bennet, Ryan Potter, Jessica Henwick, or, uh, Markiplier. It's distinct from, for example, how a lot of baseball players are predominantly black in appearance but have Spanish surnames and accents.

Anyway, they can just put out a casting call for people of mixed black and Latin descent. Casting calls allow for racial and ethnic designators. The people who would qualify know who they are and it'd be kinda silly to try to cheat on that.

edited 10th Dec '16 11:59:27 AM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65647: Dec 10th 2016 at 12:10:28 PM

I will be honest here: I am kind of tired of hearing about Miles. I really, really am. I mean, while not a comic book fan, I have seen so many Spider-man cartoon shows back in the day, I was really looking forward to seeing him on the big screen and I was deeply disappointed by the Raimi movies (not that they don't have their good points, but they were not what I wanted at all). While a very flawed movie, I saw potential in The Amazing Spider-man and then the sequel turned out such a mess. Now I have finally gotten a Spiderman I could get totally behind in Civil War, and the last thing I want is to see this character shuffled aside for some replacement. I want to see Peter's story play out. I want to see him to grow up, I want to see him meet Mary-Jane in college. I think if Marvel would introduce Miles now, I would feel very resentful of the character, because I want to experience all this with Peter on the big screen first. Once Peter's story is mostly played out, than it might be interesting to see Miles. But at this point, I think Marvel would make a huge mistake to rush him in, and I think Feige is very aware of that.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65648: Dec 10th 2016 at 12:15:56 PM

Enough of Peter's early life has been covered in other movies that I think they can make room for Miles down the line. After all you don't have a problem with them cutting out how he got his powers or the death of Uncle Ben right? And Peter's story is endless. At that rate Miles will never have any time to appear, especially since in the universe where he appears Peter is still a teenager at the time, while 616 Peter's stories mostly happen when he is an adult.

As it is, I'm surprised all of MCU Peter's adventures will happen when he's a teenager. I figure he'd be a teen for one or two movies at most, then move onto college in real time just as the actor starts to show his age, and then Miles can take over for the teen genre, especially since his life is more relatable to modern teenage audiences than geeky loner Peter's which is narratively artifacted from the 60s.

edited 10th Dec '16 12:16:37 PM by AlleyOop

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#65649: Dec 10th 2016 at 12:18:53 PM

Why not just cut out the middleman and make Miles Peter's best friend?

The people who want to see a major superhero of color get the proper MCU treatment would be unlikely to take too kindly to him being turned into a white guy's Black Best Friend. Miles is nobody's sidekick.

[up][up][up] Yeah. Miles's ancestry is clearly defined in the comics, and finding an actor with that same heritage would be as simple as a few extra sentences on the casting call.

edited 10th Dec '16 12:19:01 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65650: Dec 10th 2016 at 12:39:06 PM

[up][up] Naturally they won't, Peter will grow up, just as he should. But none of this has EVER been properly explored in a movie. The first trilogy was way too busy with action beats and fake drama to actually cover the "teenager tries to balance superheroing with being in school" theme (plus, Peter wasn't really long in school in that one). The second one had a good start, but never showed as much as I wanted to see either. We finally have a chance to get this and I really, really want to see it.

And from a marketing pov I actually think that Marvel and Sony need to show off Miles a little bit beforehand (at least in an animated show). Otherwise he won't be able to carry a movie.


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