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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#65426: Dec 5th 2016 at 10:23:50 PM

[up] Oh yeah, in those, exists only two flavors of Vietnamese: Vietcongs and fetishized/objectified/victimized women.

And Comics!Mantis, and Karma of the New Mutants definitely have 'very'' uncomfortable shades of the latter, especially in their backstories.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#65427: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:05:30 AM

Has the MCU had a German character appear who wasn't in some way connected to the Nazis? Word of God says even that one old guy from The Avengers was a Holocaust survivor.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65428: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:57:14 AM

Nope....even Zemo is played by a German actor.

Honestly, Hollywood does this all the time. Do you really think they care if an actor is actually American, British, French, German or from any other European nationality? As long as he looks the part and manages some sort of believable accent, he can get the job. And while I am sometimes really bothered when my native language is butchered (props to Marvel, btw, they even got the inscriptions in The First Avenger right), I am totally okay with this. That is the point of acting, after all, to be something you are not.

That is why I don't buy into the notion that an Asian character has to get played from an actual Asian from exactly that country, though I do understand that regional differences should be considered - I mean, Hollywood casting agencies are at least aware that someone from South Europe tends to look slightly different from someone from the North, and it would be great if the same awareness would exist concerning Asians, too.

Or even worse, that a gay character has to be played by a gay actor because that would mean that gay actors shouldn't play straight characters, and that would be just a shame.

Honestly, it is way more important that there are people behind the scenes who have the necessary knowledge to put something believable on screen.

Concerning Amadeus Cho: Not a comic book reader here, but I really like the idea of a movie with him, mainly because it would be something entirely different. We are so used to heroes with flashy powers but his main ability is his crazy intelligence. I am pretty sure that Marvel would team him up with someone to get their action beats, but honestly, that would be kind of a shame. Just having a protagonist who outwits a powerful villain despite not having the same physical power level could be very uplifting.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65429: Dec 6th 2016 at 2:05:35 AM

Well, it's a little complicated by the fact that A Lot Of Asian Countries Do Not Like Each Other. Think having a Brit played by an Frenchman or vice versa. Ethnically not that far apart either, but there's probably going to be some geopolitically sourced butthurt. Now take that stick-up-ass feeling and replace it with a festering wound when it comes to the various Asian countries, especially with the history of the last century into account.

The idea that people from the same geographic region will play characters from another country, in a more ideal world that has already realized the distinction between those countries, and where the exact nationality of the role isn't important (like, a Chinese actor playing a Japanese agent of a multinational team versus a Japanese general in a movie about the WWII Pacific Theater or a movie specifically about life growing up as a Japanese geisha) is not significant, is generally a non-issue in principle. At least it should be.

However with East and Southeast Asian nations we have a problem where even with a more aware general audience the state of relations between the countries is going to cause some continued mortal offense at crosscastings anyway, which often has as much, often more to do with political tensions than matters of outsider racismnote . Hell Hong Kong, Taiwan, and mainland China are the same Han race but you'll see a lot of anger on the sinophone internet anyway due to political tensions between them.

Now the fact that Klementieff is Korean instead of Vietnamese or at the very least Southeast Asian is a little aggravating since I share Nightwire's concern about the lack of specific representation for the Vietnamese outside of Vietnam War stereotypes. And there's that whole thing with unpunished Korean war atrocities in the Vietnam War that might understandably rankle feathers in some circles. On the other hand given that Mantis's Vietnamese nationality mostly amounted to some really noxious stereotyping beyond establishing her as ambiguously Asian it's probably one of the more expendable aspects of her character. That allows for some interchangeability and what may have ultimately been Ability over Appearance, even if the ideal situation would've been to maintain that Vietnamese connection in Doylespace.

edited 6th Dec '16 12:10:53 PM by AlleyOop

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#65430: Dec 6th 2016 at 6:56:21 AM

I am pretty sure that Marvel would team him up with someone to get their action beats, but honestly, that would be kind of a shame.
Actually, the comics already did that: for a long time, Amadeus Cho was teamed up with The Incredible Hercules and it was pretty awesome. Herc is a much more flashy, boisterous character, but he also served as a mentor for the much smarter, but also less mature Cho, often counseling him on not giving into his anger and so on. It was a very, very good book, but also a hilarious one.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65431: Dec 6th 2016 at 7:18:03 AM

[up] I know, but I still like the notion of an essential normal human (even if it is a hyper-intelligent one) who can keep up with all those Heroes on his own. It would be kind of comforting, to be honest.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#65432: Dec 6th 2016 at 8:43:01 AM

I would also point out that the "acting is about pretending to be something you're not" argument is the exact type of logic that people use to defend things like blackface and yellowface. And I would once again draw attention to the fact that treating all Asian ethnicities as being interchangeable is not equivalent to a white American actor playing an English character.note 

A more valid equivalency to make might be a non-Jewish German actor playing a Jewish Holocaust victim. Or an English actor playing an Irish character - in a movie about British oppression of Ireland.

Wanting characters of a certain marginalized ethnicity to be played by actors of that ethnicity really shouldn't be a lot to ask, especially in a world where Interchangeable Asian Cultures is already a prevalent thing. (Not to mention the fact that, contrary to common white Western belief, Asian people of different nationalities do not look alike. There are plenty of people who can usually tell a Chinese person from a Japanese person from a Korean person at a glance.)

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#65433: Dec 6th 2016 at 9:13:57 AM

Wasn't there a movie with a Japanese actress playing a Chinese woman? I vaguely remember it being talked about here before.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#65434: Dec 6th 2016 at 9:34:28 AM

Memoirs of a Geisha. That sparked a lot of the discussion. There's really no consensus. Even during that conversation they had various Asian actors giving a multitude of different opinions about whether or not it was okay.

That specific example was pretty contentious because China and Japan kinda hate each other, so a number of Japanese people found Zhang Ziyi playing a Geisha to be a slap in the face.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#65435: Dec 6th 2016 at 9:46:32 AM

Yeah, given the whole Japanese invasion of China during WWII and them kind of acting like it never really happened or it wasn't as bad as it was, I can kinda see their point.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#65437: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:28:53 PM

Not sure if good or bad.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65438: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:29:25 PM

...Really? The one with the most doubt about his skills is the one they have enough faith in to run two series before he's had a chance to prove himself on the first one? Unless it's because the showrunners on the other three Netflix properties are busy working on sequels and they don't actually care about the Inhumans spinoff so they're just throwing whoever's still available at it, and don't feel like scouting for someone new.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#65439: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:35:32 PM

Has Iron Fist finished filming? Maybe the execs were just really impressed with it.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65440: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:38:13 PM

Yeah it's done. I was thinking that might be the case too, but what execs like isn't necessarily what the audience likes.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#65441: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:53:48 PM

He might have just had a pitch on the material they liked.

Or of course there's the possibility that like many franchise installments these days, he was the one most willing to work with Marvel's vision/suggestions.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65442: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:10:28 PM

I trust Loeb. So far he did pretty well with picking the respective show runners. The guy really deserves a little bit more love and trust at this point.

Plus, I am actually more interested who is on the writing staff.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#65444: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:26:19 PM

I think Loeb has done a pretty good job as far as picking the right people for the right projects and letting them do there thing - can't think of anything in the MCU that has been outright panned yet, even the very worst of it is just 'okay, kind of dull' instead of awful.

As long as he doesn't get the itch to start writing again it's all good.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#65445: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:31:37 PM

Agents of SHIELD Season 5 confirmed to be Ultimatum.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#65446: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:34:45 PM

Huh. Didn't everybody hate Ultimatum?

Although then again, everybody hated Civil War too, up until the movie came out.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#65447: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:35:10 PM

It's a joke.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#65448: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:35:56 PM

Heh. I apparently need to learn to detect humor.

edited 6th Dec '16 1:36:01 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
MapleSamurai Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#65449: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:39:04 PM

Don't worry, I was confused about whether or not it was a joke, too.

And now I'm confused about what the joke was prompted by. Because in my experience, people usually don't make "x confirmed" jokes without it being prompted by something.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#65450: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:40:08 PM

The comment about Loeb getting the urge to write again. Ultimatum was a shitty comic he wrote for that garbage Ultimate Marvel universe.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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