Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
According to here
, Marvel was doing casting calls specifically for an Asian actress. It wasn't mere coincidence.
then they wanted someone who could look like the comic book counterpart even though the final design is not that counterpart. Some facial similarities. Mantis in either deception looks Asian or at least has some features. it's a shorthand reminder she has some Asian blood in her, but they don't mean anything within the live nation's version narrative context. The discussion here sounds ridicules after the way I put it because race is skin deep. In reality this just gives a job and voice to artist of color who don't receive it that's all. looking at it from an industry perspective sounds better. Race is skin
Only female Zen-Whoberis have central roles? gamora is the only greenskinned protagonist
edited 5th Dec '16 12:42:06 PM by WolyniaBookSeries
It does indeed, and it was without question the right call under the circumstances. In fact, now that I think about it, I'm actually a little impressed that they did specifically seek out an Asian actress for the role, rather than using this as their latest handy-dandy excuse for casting another white person.
It's sad that the bar has been lowered to the point where I find that remarkable, but such is the cultural context we live in - and the track record of the MCU thus far.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."I'm just saying the part of her backstory where she's explicitly an Asian human in-universe (should've made that more clear) as opposed to an alien who happens to be played by what we recognize as an Asian in Doylespace is better off excised because it's not only a miniscule aspect of her character who is basically an alien for 90% of her comic history, it also adds nothing to her character except to make her more of a stereotype.
That plus the narrative convolution of having other humans besides Peter Quill make it ultimately not worth the slight boost in explicit Asian representation as opposed to actor-side inclusivity. My main point was made with the knowledge she was already going to be played by an Asian actress, which I would've pushed for regardless of whether she started off as an ultra-stereotypical Vietnamese prostitute or not. So it's not comparable to the Ancient One in that respect.
I'm not. While they've arguably not been great about racial diversity in their castings in general the Ancient One is the only significant instance of them whitewashing a character who wasn't originally whitenote . I get whitewashing Asians is a problem with Hollywood in general that I personally don't approve of as an Asian person and it's disappointing that the MCU did what it did with the Ancient One but it's also hyperbolic and a little melodramatic to act as if whitewashing is the absolute norm and race-appropriate casting is a shockingly rare instance of racial sensitivity from Marvel.
edited 5th Dec '16 12:43:46 PM by AlleyOop
![]()
Sure, I think that's fair enough. Like I said, this instance is strange and unique enough that I'm not hugely bothered by the decision.
Anyway, "impressed" was the wrong word to use. "Surprised" would be more accurate. It's true that the Swinton One is the only case of explicit whitewashing in the MCU (that I know of), but I was referring to the general state of Asian representation in the MCU, not just whitewashing specifically. Frankly, in terms of the films, so far there have barely been any Asian characters to whitewash in the first place.
It's not accurate to say that whitewashing is the norm in the MCU films, but in refuting that fact we risk missing the point. So far, we've got one explicitly whitewashed Asian (which is one too many, obviously) - and almost no non-whitewashed Asians to counterbalance that. There's been Kenneth Choi in Captain America, Claudia Kim in Age of Ultron, and Ben Kingsley in Iron Man 3 (and that particular story is a whole 'nother ball of wax). Oh, and Hogun in Thor, who's barely even a character at all. All of them are tertiary at best. The only Asian character to actually receive a primary role so far was - who else - the Ancient One. And we all know how that turned out.
So in acknowledging that the MCU only has one unambiguous case of whitewashing a major Asian character, we have to also acknowledge that they have no unambiguous cases of having major non-whitewashed Asian characters. Up until Guardians of the Galaxy 2 comes along, that is - which takes us back to the initial discussion.
So yes, I am somewhat surprised that they didn't use this as a ready-made excuse to cast a white actress as Mantis. Call that melodramatic if you want.
edited 5th Dec '16 12:44:47 PM by RBluefish
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
They are doing much better about Asian representation in their TV shows — Agents of SHIELD has Melinda May and Daisy Johnson. Plus, they have good Latinx representation now, too, with Robbie Reyes and Yo-Yo.
I'm cautiously optimistic about Iron Fist, since it has good Asian characters as well as evil Asian characters, just like it has evil white characters. But in the movies...yeah, they have an Asian representation problem.
Which character could be introduced to solve it, though?
edited 5th Dec '16 12:51:15 PM by alliterator
This is a problem for Hollywood so I think we should move it to the other thread. When I look outside the Marvel Studios the problem still exist. The MCU isn't the go to saviour trying to fix everything or give examples of incorrectness. The real problem is above one studio
IF can employ Asian actors and actresses and choreographiers. I fear fans will think the story is meant to uplift Asian American culture like Luke Cage did for African American. It's a mortal kombat story instead. Asian is a broad term. Really I should be saying Chinese because that's what KL reflects the most. Chinese heaven = KL.
edited 5th Dec '16 1:37:02 PM by WolyniaBookSeries
![]()
Kamala Khan, probably. (If you couldn't tell, I like her a bit.) Cindy Moon or Nico Minoru (unless she's gonna be in the Runaways TV show that's supposed to happen or something?) are good options, too.
![]()
![]()
They're doing better with Asian representation in Agents of Shield, definitely. Other shows, not so much. (Looking at you, Daredevil.)note As for Iron Fist, I'm...not optimistic about that show in the least. (And I hope to heaven that they don't try to pick that show for uplifting Asian-American culture.)
As for characters who should be introduced to help mitigate the problem - yeah, Kamala Khan is the obvious one, and Cindy Moon is another good option. As far as I know, Nico Minoru is indeed going to be in the Runaways adaptation (unless they do something unbelievably boneheaded with her casting, which I don't think they will), so that's good news. Racebending existing white characters is another good tool that could potentially be at their disposal, but they're unlikely to make use of it and it's far from an ideal solution anyway.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."Jubilee and Sunfire and Lady Deathstrike and Armor and... Oh wait. One thing worth noting— a lot of Marvel's push towards diversity before the last decade or so was strongly concentrated in the X-Men and their attendant characters, so it's slightly unfortunate that they're totally cut off from the mainstream MCU. It's not an excuse, but it does explain some of that 'default is white' trend. For a long time, if you wanted to come up with a new character, the simplest explanation for how they got powers was to make them a mutant. So a lot of the characters who've been around longer, and thus default to white, are those who are detached from the X-Men's orbit.
That being said, people might not take race-lifting as hard if it ever seemed to work in other direction.
Anyway. I've never read Hercules, but what is the general consensus on Amadeus Cho? He's certainly gotten big (pun fully intended) in the past few years, yet I never seem to actually run into his fans.
edited 5th Dec '16 2:02:06 PM by Unsung
Yeah, so many characters being locked off behind the X-Men property has not done the MCU any favors when it comes to inclusivity.
With Amadeus Cho, I'll admit that his personality doesn't quite click with me, but nonetheless I do think he would be a good choice for the MCU. (And I can't believe I didn't think of him, because he's one of my usual go-to examples.) They already set the seeds with Helen Cho's minor appearance in Age of Ultron, though since Claudia Kim is way too young to have a son that age they would have to do a bit of monkeying with canon to pull it off.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."Most Asian heroes are locked up with Fox, but Jimmy Woo is available if they ever decided to pursue an Agents of ATLAS adaptation, as are Amadeus Cho and Silk. Plus Ultimate Marvel had a second Black Widow who was Asian and Fury's ex (turn that nod in TWS to something more?). White Fox is super popular in South Korea, enough that she joined the comics canon so she might receive a push into the films themselves.
Anyway I think the reason the Ancient One was whitewashed yet Mantis wasn't indeed had a lot to do with cowardice over the Chinese market, to an abject level. Shitty excuse as it was, they probably did believe in on some level but decided they'd rather lop off the entire leg and ship the patient off to Australia than actually put effort into setting the bones and risk a chance of the leg healing crooked.
edited 5th Dec '16 1:59:45 PM by AlleyOop
Had a thought/question.
So if Baby Groot is to regain the memories of Adult Groot, I had been thinking that the Time Stone or Mind Stone would be necessary, and those are respectively under the control of Doctor Strange and Vision. However, I just saw a WMG noting the possibility of the Soul Stone showing up and that would probably work just as well or better.
Also had a thought similar to another WMG about characters having traumatic flashbacks. So, the first GOTG mixed in some surprisingly touching and/or heartbreaking moments into the humor and one thing I was thinking Re the Mantis scene is that Drax probably does not want to know what his deepest darkest secret is. It's probably self-hatred from being unable to save his family from Ronan. And I could see a flashback at that point as well as some foreshadowing of his daughter actually being alive.
edited 5th Dec '16 3:05:04 PM by Hodor2
Right. This is off topic but....
One of you is gonna have to change his avatar. I mean, I know Oop has a backwards flag, but when one of you comes right after the other, it's still hella confusing.
One Strip! One Strip!So this is a few pages back but I wanted to bring it up:
Doesn't this happen with white people all the time too? If Hollywood isn't whitewashing a role they typically look for an actor that can reasonably pass for the ethnicity being portrayed without regard to whether they're actually that ethnicity. So while we do get stuff like Korean people playing Chinese people it also isn't uncommon to see British people as Americans or Jewish people as Christians.
What I'm saying is the problem here is the lack of representation in general. Mantis is one of the very, very few Vietnamese characters in Marvel U, and while I'm fine with her comic backstory getting excised (never liked it anyway), the fact that she's not being played by a Vietnamese actress ends up completely costing us a much-needed representation of a people whose representation has always been miniscule to begin with.
Idk does that make sense?
edited 5th Dec '16 6:54:27 PM by Nightwire
![]()
That's really a false equivalency. White people don't struggle under the same set of stereotypes, underrepresentation, and perceived interchangeability that Asian people do.
It definitely does. It's very frustrating that they couldn't be bothered to find an actress of the correct ethnicity for the role. Even if they are making so she's no longer human, the fact remains that there are so few Vietnamese or Vietnamese-American characters in media that things like this sting all the more. (Especially if the rumors about Karma not being in the New Mutants movie are true.)
It is a decent criticism that Hollywood is terrible at national representation in general. It's also an important followup that thanks to them also being terrible at ethnic representation, it's still an issue that hits non-white people far worse.
To compare - instead of Hollywood routinely having Americans play British or Spanish or Australian people, imagine the case being that there aren't any British or Spanish or Australian people involved in Hollywood at all, and thus all representation is done by Americans.
In this case, I'm totally unsurprised that Mantis' actress isn't Vietnamese, and I find myself not expecting her to be even if she were an actual Vietnamese woman like in the comics rather than an alien. I can't even think of a movie where I saw a Vietnamese actor or actress involved to a major extent. Hollywood doesn't just often have nations mixed up, the default for Asian characters is to grab someone from a different culture and go "close enough." There's a lack of care for Asian representation that isn't matched in portrayals of Caucasian cultures, even when there is some dissonance.
edited 5th Dec '16 6:45:11 PM by KnownUnknown
Maggie Q is the only high-profile actress-of-Vietnamese-descent I can think of off the top of my head, but even she has never played a character who is actually Vietnamese on screen (at least to my knowledge). Which unfortunately further proves your point.
I mean, I think Pom Klementieff is going to do a fine job, no doubt about it, and I'm really liking how Mantis is shaping up to be in this movie, but yeah, it still stings, if even a little.
edited 5th Dec '16 7:05:14 PM by Nightwire
Well, her character in Nikita is actually Vietnamese. But I agree that most Vietnamese are usually just props for American soldiers in Vietnam war movies.

Mantis has" Ugly Cute" thing going on. Must be the eyes. I think she's gonna won my favorite ladies in the MCU.
35 year old white man.