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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65376: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:50:47 PM

I agree with Gunn....making all Got G characters either alien or at least half alien makes way more sense than a bunch of humans somehow ending up with special powers and then ending up at the same place in the whole Galaxy. This is one of the cases in which the needs of the story should be considered before the need of representation.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65377: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:53:01 PM

Come on, you're setting yourself up for a rebuttal where someone will point out that they could've just cast a nonwhite actor as Peter Quill so there would be no dilemma in the first place. Especially since his appearance isn't as iconic as the other heroes' so it wouldn't really make much difference that he was.

edited 4th Dec '16 11:54:50 PM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65378: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:54:54 PM

[up][up] I was first against the notion of a romance in Doctor Strange, but I later on felt it made sense that Stephen had some connection to his old life. There was no need for it actually being a romance, but then, there are good reasons for going that route.

Not that I would call is an actual romantic subplot.

Steve and Peggy were great together. I really like Fitzsimmons and Bobby and Hunter and Luke and Jessica. And I see potential in Wanda/Vision. But generally speaking I don't think that we need a romance in every movie.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#65379: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:57:03 PM

[up][up]I'm actually okay with the representation of Guardians of the Galaxy — Chris Pratt is a great comedic actor, so I'm good with his as Peter; and then we have an actress whose parents were from the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico, an actor whose parents were Greek and Filipino, and Vin Diesel.

edited 4th Dec '16 11:57:47 PM by alliterator

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#65380: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:58:36 PM

But what about Nathan Fillion's role? Is it really just a cameo?

My various fanfics.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#65381: Dec 5th 2016 at 12:02:23 AM

[up] In the first film, yes. He was the voice of the prisoner who tries to intimidate Peter in the Kyln. In the second film, he will be Simon Williams, although we have no idea if he actually appears or is just on a movie poster.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#65382: Dec 5th 2016 at 12:07:45 AM

I don't mind romance when they put the effort in. Like anything else, it can be done well. I liked Pepper and Peggy Carter, for instance. I liked the idea of Strange having an ex, but it didn't feel...done. Christine is a satellite character, with no personality or agency. It feels like she's there to fall in love with Strange again any minute, even if she isn't and doesn't.

I thought the awkward little moment Peter and Gamora had in the first GOTG was a nice character bit. It let them get a little closer (as friends, if nothing else) without necessarily locking them into a token romance. At this point, I'd actually prefer to see them break up, or have her reject him outright before it even gets that far, but then have them go on becoming friends after the fact. It'd help Peter grow up, which is something he needs to do. It'd help reinforce the fact that Gamora is one of the most skilled assassins in the entire galaxy, not just a kickass love interest for the male lead. And frankly anything in media that shows that romance isn't the be-all end-all zero sum endgame of male-female relationship's, that'd probably be welcome at this point in time. All manner of complicated relationships and fun character dynamics await, if we can only get past the idea that the male and female lead need to get together and stay together in every movie.

edited 5th Dec '16 1:11:04 AM by Unsung

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#65383: Dec 5th 2016 at 12:09:13 AM

[up][up] I hope he actually shows up as Wonder Man. I just want more Nathan Fillion and he'll never be Hal at this rate.

My various fanfics.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65384: Dec 5th 2016 at 12:09:35 AM

Some people don't see the number of Po C actors in Got G as representation because not only are none of them playing characters from the actual culture, they are also covered in paint and make-up. I can see the point. Still, it gives those actors the chance to keep their names out there (and in Batista's case the chance to get known as an actor in the first place).

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65385: Dec 5th 2016 at 12:12:29 AM

I think Christine mostly suffered due what the audience expected to happen. Though it would do the character a lot of good if she keeps turning up in other MCU movies, independent for Doctor Strange.

IncognitoNinja Gravity Beams and BIDIBIDIBIDIBIDI Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Gravity Beams and BIDIBIDIBIDIBIDI
#65386: Dec 5th 2016 at 12:43:10 AM

Just saw the new teaser trailer for Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, and...

Holy s**t, are they fighting Shuma-Gorath? (Or one of his spawns?)

"Learn as if you will live forever, live as if you will die tomorrow."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#65387: Dec 5th 2016 at 1:24:28 AM

Some people don't see the number of PoC actors in GotG as representation because not only are none of them playing characters from the actual culture, they are also covered in paint and make-up. I can see the point.

It's the difference between representation and inclusion. Representation is depicting a variety of human cultures. Inclusion is the cast/crew/etc being made of humans of different backgrounds.

Guardians's main cast is more inclusive than other MCU films, but it is not necessarily more representative. Mantis being played by an Asian woman is inclusion. Peter if he were played by an Asian man would be representation.

edited 5th Dec '16 1:54:03 AM by Tuckerscreator

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#65388: Dec 5th 2016 at 1:38:02 AM

Though a movie with exactly one human in it is going to struggle in terms of representation in any case. Though for the sake of argument there was no reason why we couldn't have had some of those totally-not-human Xandarians be non-white (and not just a few of the extras, both the 'main' ones were white dudes.)

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#65389: Dec 5th 2016 at 1:59:20 AM

White dudes? I'm pretty sure that Nova Prime was a women.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65390: Dec 5th 2016 at 4:01:21 AM

Oh, I was also bothered by the fact that all fighter pilots shown were males while the female members of the Nova Corps were only shown carrying around clipboards. It's sometimes the small things which screw the balance a little bit.

Is it just me or did Chris Pratt gain some weight since the last movie?

WolyniaBookSeries Since: Nov, 2016
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#65392: Dec 5th 2016 at 6:43:51 AM

Also "Fox on the run?" Maybe I'm reading too much into a song from Sweet from the 70's, but I sense shade. I'm just glad Sweet never recorded "Batman v Superman put me to sleep."

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#65393: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:18:51 AM

I don't think it would've been a good idea for Mantis to be Asian in the movies anyway, given she was a stereotypical Vietnamese prostitute born of an Asian Babymama.

In this specific case there's enough bizarre continuity going on that I can forgive it, but I still need to give my usual refrain of "the proper means of combating stereotypes is through increased nuance, not erasure." Mantis being an Asian stereotype doesn't mean she should stop being Asian, it just means she should stop being a stereotype. If we let ourselves fall into the other mode of thinking, then we're just going to get more Ancient Ones.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#65394: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:22:12 AM

The version of Mantis known for being on the Guardians was practically not even the same Mantis that was on the Avengers.

The DnA version of her was treated like she hadn't had the celestial baby yet. And also she liked Kang. Who had once kidnapped her to try to force her to marry him.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#65395: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:47:13 AM

The version of Mantis known for being on the Guardians was practically not even the same Mantis that was on the Avengers.
The version of Mantis on the Guardians also had green skin and antennae, so she was pretty easy to mistake as an alien right away.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65396: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:54:39 AM

No trailer breakdowns! The one of Civil War went too deep for my taste...

Though I wonder if Fox on the Run might refer to Yondu.....

WolyniaBookSeries Since: Nov, 2016
#65397: Dec 5th 2016 at 9:00:10 AM

[up4]Mantis is half Vietnamese and half German. The German part is irrelevant, while the Vietnamese part only contributed to the plot thread where she fucked people and severed them beer in a Vietnamese bar. Other than that our social viewing of race means nothing because she quickly became a convoluted alien who dealt with little to none Earthly matters.

Your projecting the Asian descent of her comicbook counterpart onto the Pom Klementieff version so that the actress is fully Asian as if this a narrative requirement. Strangely enough she is half Asian and half Caucasian. Again our social viewing of race is irrelevant to the context of life outside of Earth in the MCU because all that comes down to is skin color. White, blue, green, etc... on the other hand, it's reasonable for the audience to question why is the majority of characters without makeup Caucasian or when Nova Corps do heavy lifting it's only male? These are still human actors and we are a human audience wanting stories to incorporate people from all backgrounds instead of leaving it uneven. That's a conversation for casting decisions. Who gets what role.

The MCU's Mantis is a N/A alien raised by Ego. Pom Klementieff got the role because out of all the casting she must have done a great job not because James Gunn follows "white is default" mindset.

edited 5th Dec '16 9:22:27 AM by WolyniaBookSeries

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#65398: Dec 5th 2016 at 10:12:25 AM

I'm just a bit bummed Mantis isn't played by an actor of actual Vietnamese descent. Perhaps because I'm Vietnamese myself, and our people tend to get lumped in with other East and South-East Asian cultures...

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#65400: Dec 5th 2016 at 11:40:25 AM

[up][up][up] I confess I'm having a little trouble understanding what you're saying there.note  I already stated that I wasn't necessarily condemning this particular instance, simply because of the incredibly bizarre and convoluted nature of Mantis's backstory, which I can't pretend to fully understand.

That said, I'm not "projecting" the Asian descent of Comic!Mantis onto MCU!Mantis, whatever that means. Twisted continuity aside, it's impossible to reasonably deny that the MCU has just a little bit of a problem when it comes to representations of Asian people, and when viewed within that context then this move becomes more disappointing. I'm also not sure why you're adding the topic of whiteness to the already-convoluted discussion, because I never accused this of being whitewashing. I'm fully aware that Pom Klementioff is mixed Asian. If the role had gone to a white actor, then we'd be having a different conversation.

Also, to expand on this subject - am I the only one who's noticed that in the entire MCU, the only nonwhite actresses to receive central film roles are apparently playing green-skinned aliens?

[up][up] Yeah, that is annoying. People may call me uptight for this, but I've always been bothered by the tendency of treating all Asian ethnicities as being interchangeable for the purposes of casting. Especially when it results in the erasure of less-represented Asian cultures.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

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