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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#65026: Nov 15th 2016 at 3:52:25 PM

Walker doesn't have to be a political statement. The whole point is he's the exact type of person who should never be Captain America for many reasons. Him being a big fan of My Country, Right or Wrong is only part of it.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65027: Nov 15th 2016 at 4:09:41 PM

I've always seen Red Skull as being more like Voldemort, especially MCU's Red Skull - is the leader of an order that is heavily prejudiced with a bigoted doctrune, but whose own prejudices are basically "everyone except me is inferior."

However, Marvel's heroes have always been rather political - and that hasn't changed that much in the transition. Cap and Iron Man, especially, have always been "fights America's enemies" characters - with Iron Man 1 substituting terrorists in for communists. This is more than likely why much of Iron Man's rogues gallery either hasn't been touched or has been incorporated in odd ways - though most of them aren't huge losses anyway.

edited 15th Nov '16 4:18:09 PM by KnownUnknown

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#65028: Nov 15th 2016 at 4:39:40 PM

[up][up] If I remember right, the actual "my county, right or wrong" phrase has a second part: if right to be kept right, if wrong to be set right". which would be the exact opposite of 'blindly loyal, no matter what'.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#65029: Nov 15th 2016 at 4:43:02 PM

[up][up] Though markedly, most of Iron Man's rogues gallery are actually dark sides to America and Capitalism in general: Obadiah Stane, Ezekiel Stane, Justin Hammer, The Spymaster (who's a industrial spy), The Controller (who's a industrial thief), so forth.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#65030: Nov 15th 2016 at 4:54:47 PM

Those villains dominate his Rogues Gallery now because the kinds of characters he used to fight became passe (and in some cases, offensive) and the kind of political message they wanted their capitalist superhero to send changed. He became a good guy businessman fighting corrupt business and irresponsible greed.

edited 15th Nov '16 4:57:35 PM by KnownUnknown

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#65031: Nov 15th 2016 at 6:04:08 PM

Although I'd hardly call Tony responsible.

Hell, he fucks up so much that he'd break a chair by sitting on it.

One Strip! One Strip!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#65032: Nov 15th 2016 at 6:50:45 PM

He's not responsible but he's not actively evil like Stane or Hammer. That's kinda the whole point of his character development. He grew a conscience and realized doing morally reprehensible things in the name of profit is good for finances, but bad for your soul. His bad guys find the notion of letting ethics and empathy stand in the way of money to be absurd.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65033: Nov 16th 2016 at 1:39:24 AM

While I do think that there is a political element to the MCU, especially the Ironman and Captain America Franchises, the movies are more US-critical than anything else. Especially the Winter Soldier ended up a very poignant commentary on the NSA affair without even knowing that it would happen around the time of the release.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#65036: Nov 17th 2016 at 12:54:32 PM

Huh, so she worked on Creed too. Interesting.

Do you think this should be cross-linked to the Film Representation and Diversity Thread?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65038: Nov 17th 2016 at 4:08:54 PM

Surprised it's been announced before GOTG 2's. Though I guess it's less CG intensive than GOTG 2, and I guess Sony is allowed to independently of Marvel on these decisions.

edited 17th Nov '16 4:10:00 PM by AlleyOop

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65039: Nov 17th 2016 at 8:58:30 PM

Apologies for the doublepost but the lady who did those hilarious Star Wars and Suicide Squad riffs made another video about Doctor Strange.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65040: Nov 17th 2016 at 11:46:47 PM

Arrogance can have very different forms....and is a matter of definition. For example Thor isn't arrogant anymore, nowadays he is confident because he was humbled in his first movie. Tony has the arrogance of someone who tries to hide his insecurities. Star-lord and Ant-man aren't exactly arrogant, they do have a "swagger" which isn't exactly the same thing. They are very aware of their own character flaws and short-comings, but like to show off what they have. And then there is Doctor Strange, who actually does think that he is the smartest guy in the room (and is right about it).

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#65041: Nov 18th 2016 at 6:12:01 AM

[up]Depends on the kind of "smart" you're talking about. One created an unprecedented form of clean energy and mechanical engineering/prostheses, the other, while maybe better when it comes to absorbing established knowledge and raw cunning, hasn't revolutionized anything.

edited 18th Nov '16 6:14:00 AM by nervmeister

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65042: Nov 18th 2016 at 6:32:36 AM

[up] Sure, but that wasn't my point...Tony can be proud of a lot he has done, but his showboating and arrogance is actually based in a deep need for approval. Doctor Strange might love getting his accolades, but that is not why he is acting all arrogant, he does it because he knows that he is the best in what he does and is proud of it.

Strange has a need to not fail, but he actually don't care what other people think about him. Tony has a need to impress people. That isn't quite the same.

edited 18th Nov '16 6:33:20 AM by Swanpride

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#65043: Nov 18th 2016 at 8:57:33 AM

Not sure that Strange doesn't have some attention-seeking issues in the mix. He will only put his neck on the line for really spectacular and risky operations that will impress everyone when he pulls it off (whereas Christine seems to be doing a lot of 'routine' surgeries/diagnoses but has probably actually saved a lot more in real numbers.)

Strange doesn't necessarily want to be liked as a person but he very much wants to be seen as the best damn surgeon in the business. Not just be the best - be seen as the best.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#65044: Nov 18th 2016 at 9:09:52 AM

Someone pointed out that its more about immortality.

He wants to put his name in the medical books. Long after he's gone he wants people to perform the Strange Procedure.

Its this desire for immortality that the villain tries to appeal to.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65045: Nov 18th 2016 at 9:14:50 AM

Exactly. Tony wants the approval because deep down he has serious self-esteem issues, due to his father abandoning and neglecting him. He also learned early on that acting out is the best way to get attention.

Doctor Strange on the other hand knows that he is good - to a certain degree. While he does what other people wouldn't even try, when he believes that a case is hopeless he avoids it to protect his reputation, and he only takes difficult cases because he wants his name in the history books. That is why he really wants something to be named after him. But the attention and the praise is just a by-product of that.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#65046: Nov 18th 2016 at 10:06:55 AM

Posted this on the wrong thread:

I really want Strange to be the voice of reason and mediator of Civil War. This is part of why I wanted the multi-year training sequence for this movie, why I wanted him to have spent longer in the time loop that I think we all knew had to be a part of this movie. I wanted him to come out of this movie being able to justify being wise and wizardly. Gandalf-esque, really.

I know it seems like his journey from arrogant jerk to wise mentor seems ripe for drama, but honestly, as Jenny points out in that video, we've seen that before. I'd honestly like to have seen someone who's completed that journey. Milking it for drama, that just seems to easy. Actually showing a well-rounded person who's shed their old self, making that believable? That would've been the more ambitious story to tell.

Going back to the video, I would argue that Tony Stark's arrogance has become a very different thing, that he is in fact a deeply broken man at this point and RDJ's performance gives him the texture he needs to come across as very different from Strange— but regardless of where it's coming from, the fact does remain that these movies are full of snark and it can start to feel kind of samey. AOU suffered from that.

Halberdier17 We Are With You Zack Snyder from Western Pennsylvania Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
We Are With You Zack Snyder
#65047: Nov 18th 2016 at 11:07:47 AM

I thought this was interesting it is from a fan of the movies but he is asking why are they terrible to look at.

The answer is the Color Grading that Marvel's movies filmed on Digital Camera uses.

Edit* Sorry if this doesn't belong here.

edited 18th Nov '16 11:08:18 AM by Halberdier17

Batman Ninja more like Batman's Bizarre Adventure
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#65048: Nov 18th 2016 at 11:34:25 AM

[up] Yeah, the vid kind of cheats by picking more or less the ONE scene in Got G which isn't full of purple colours...plus, the "corrected" version he posted are way too overdone, they look unnatural. Which is good and well if that's what you are going for is a Spider-man trilogy-like feel, but the MCU movies are supposed to look realistic...he also apparently didn't notice that most of the franchises follow a very specific colour scheme. For example Thor uses gold, Captain America starts with Sepia (to give it a nostalgic feel) and then goes for blue tones (which are very similar to the steel blue the Avenger movies use, but then, he is the first Avenger), The Incredible Hulk is also incredible green, Got G likes the red/purple tones, which you can also find in the more trippy scenes in Doctor Strange, but the scenes which are set in the real world have mostly a very earthy tone, with a lot of brown in it. So too say that they "all look the same" is a statement which isn't true from the get go.

The habit is even more obvious in the Netflix shows, in which each hero and villain has his own colour. Daredevil red, Kingpin white, Jessica blue sometimes mixed with Killgrave's purple, Luke yellow and Cottonmouth blood red.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#65049: Nov 18th 2016 at 12:05:43 PM

Eh. I wouldn't call it 'cheating', just personal taste. Color-grading and having a thematic color palette aren't the same thing, and aren't mutually exclusive, for that matter. If you prefer the more realistic, muted colors, that's totally fine, personal taste and all, but I kind of like the greater contrast at the very least. There's still a middle ground, where you increase the contrast but reduce the saturation— darker shadows, but more somber color tones, for example. Bear in mind this is after just a few minutes of tinkering with the color values— this is just about establishing the fact that the possibilities are there.

These movies don't need to be as heightened as the DCEU, but he's right when he says they're muddy. Even real life isn't quite as flat as these movies often are, color-wise.

edited 18th Nov '16 12:35:27 PM by Unsung

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#65050: Nov 18th 2016 at 12:50:52 PM

I think the "corrected" versions are a little oversaturated, suffering from the problems AOU had where the whole image looked blue or brown, but the editors could afford to strengthen the blacks more to make what colors there are pop out. I don't think they should go as far as what the DCEU is doing, since there the color choices are so saturated and glaring now that they're suffering from color burn and become ugly. It worked for Mad Max because of the setting, but anything else not so much.

edited 18th Nov '16 12:55:50 PM by AlleyOop


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