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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64901: Nov 11th 2016 at 3:46:32 PM

[up][up][up]Hell he's probably one of the easiest villains to bring back, being a computer and all.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64902: Nov 11th 2016 at 4:32:11 PM

They probably made backups. Somewhere, out there, is a USB-drive with all of Zola on it... or at least Zola lite.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#64903: Nov 11th 2016 at 4:35:58 PM

I'm fully on board with the idea that he managed to upload himself onto some private server somewhere before getting blown up. No way a literal cyber villain goes out that easily.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#64904: Nov 11th 2016 at 4:36:51 PM

Zola himself likely has back-ups. In Winter Soldier, Zola casually pulls up files and footage of Nick Fury's death, which only happened hours ago, which means he probably has internet access. So he could just upload his consciousness to the web like Ultron tried to do in Age of Ultron.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#64905: Nov 11th 2016 at 4:37:08 PM

Giant reel-to-reel AI Arnim Zola is easily one of the greatest moments in the whole MCU.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64906: Nov 11th 2016 at 5:09:12 PM

Actually, him having back ups of himself would add another explanation to his willingness to use himself as a distraction to hold Cap and Natasha in place.

He's already dead and just a program so he's not in any real danger, but he's also uploading himself to a new server, so he's in even less danger then we thought.

One Strip! One Strip!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#64907: Nov 11th 2016 at 5:22:44 PM

It's the kind of thing I didn't expect the MCU to touch because of how ridiculous it was. But they pulled it off with style, the madmen.

MapleSamurai Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#64908: Nov 11th 2016 at 5:53:51 PM

Yeah, I think it's fair to say we haven't seen the last of Zola, and that concept art for Ant-Man is a pretty good indication that Marvel is at least interested in bringing him back.

Although when you think about about it, it's kind of sad that the guy who was just a meek Nazi scientist in one movie and a face on a computer screen in the next was, and still is, a far more memorable and intimidating villain than pretty much 99.99% of MCU movie Big Bads.

edited 11th Nov '16 5:54:19 PM by MapleSamurai

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64909: Nov 11th 2016 at 7:11:45 PM

At the moment, until Zola physically shows up on screen, he's still dead. Which I why I really, really hope that idea doesn't say on the cutting room floor.

Having another series where the Big Bad is HYDRA would be dragging on, but it looks like this was more establishing that Zola was still a thing with HYDRA, doing business, which would've been an awesome way to show that he's still around given that the movie basically already does that (in particular, it looks like Zola would've been there instead of or in addition to the evil Ex-SHIELD agent we got in the finished product). And there are all sorts of movies coming up where that's possible to fit without distracting from the plot, especially if you figure in stingers.

edited 11th Nov '16 7:16:48 PM by KnownUnknown

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64910: Nov 11th 2016 at 7:17:59 PM

[up][up]It helps that Toby Jones is really, really good at being creepy.

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#64911: Nov 11th 2016 at 9:48:33 PM

So. A while back I pointed out that the targeting satellite for the Insight helicarriers was still out there, and I was concerned about that. And everyone patted my hand and assured me that Tony or someone definitely took that thing out, even though it was never shown or spoken of onscreen in any of the movies or Agents of SHIELD. In light of this most recent discussion, I submit the following theory: that satellite is totally still up there, and that's where Zola uploaded himself. And it's going to come back to haunt everyone in the movie that comes after Infinity War.

edited 11th Nov '16 9:49:12 PM by MedusaStone

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#64912: Nov 11th 2016 at 9:57:43 PM

I mean, it's just a satellite, not an actual weapon, so it's probably not a super-big deal unless HYDRA gets the resources to build replacement Helicarriers synched up with it.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#64913: Nov 12th 2016 at 12:24:43 AM

I submit the following theory: that satellite is totally still up there, and that's where Zola uploaded himself.

I wondered about that too, due to this line from Nat when trying to hack the flash drive at the Apple store.

"This drive is protected by some sort of AI. It keeps rewriting itself to counter my commands."

After the Zola scene, my first thought was that the AI in the drive was Zola, personally ferrying the algorithm for Insight's targets. And Nat got the flash drive's info as a copy of the data put into the Insight satellite. Ergo, Zola might be there.

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#64914: Nov 12th 2016 at 1:10:10 AM

[up][up]Yeah, but if it's still up there, with a copy of the algorithm on it, it doesn't necessarily have to be HYDRA using it. Anyone with resources and some info could possibly do it. Like, say, a collection of world governments? Or one US Secretary of State desperate to wipe out a group of rouge superheroes that are now internationally wanted fugitives?

Because I'll tell you right now Thaddeus Ross is exactly the sort of person who would use something like Insight (if his definition of "threat to national security" happened to apply to a lot of his personal enemies, well...), and if he wasn't on the Kill List in Winter Soldier it's only because he was good at causing problems HYDRA could exploit, without actually being on the payroll.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64915: Nov 12th 2016 at 6:37:38 AM

IIRC, wasn't the algorithm in the Helicarriers? It was stored on those chips Cap and Falcon replaced. They took out the bits that said "Target the people this algorithm identifies as a threat" and replaced them with bits that said "Target the people this algorithm identifies as an Insight Helicarrier."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#64917: Nov 12th 2016 at 12:36:16 PM

So, guess who saw Doctor Strange and loved it as per usual? grin

I won't talk spoilers here, I'll save that for the movie's actual thread, but the point is that you can chalk another one up to Marvel.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64918: Nov 12th 2016 at 1:02:54 PM

The problem with that plan is I like most of these people.

So do I, but I'd rather see them all dead then go through this argument any more.

Mostly because I'm lazy.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64919: Nov 12th 2016 at 2:59:22 PM

[up]Sometimes you must kill what you love.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64920: Nov 12th 2016 at 4:51:26 PM

[up]

Damn straight.

You must also kill what you hate.

And that's why Kill Em All is a win win for everyone.

One Strip! One Strip!
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#64921: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:09:48 PM

So I was thinking about the MCU and decided to take a movie-by-movie look at whether the Avengers are dealing with pre-existing threats, or just solving problems they create.

IM 1: Stane accomplishes his villainy using first Stark Industries tech and then a vatiation on the Iron Man suit. Without Tony Stark and Stark Industries, Stane would not have the resources he used to carry out his villainy.

IM 2: Grudge match - conflict is because villain wants to hurt Stark/Iron Man. Without Stark, there is no conflict.

Incredible Hulk: Confluct caused by military attempts to capture Hulk. Without Hulk, there is no conflict.

Thor: Conflict caused by sibling rivalry between Thor and Loki. If Thor never shows up on Earth, there is no conflict affecting Earth.

The First Avenger: Red Skull wants to conquer/destroy world. Cap stops him. Positive achievement by Avenger!

The Avengers: Loki targets Earth because Thor is attached to it. Without Thor's involvement in Earth, there would be no threat to Earth.

IM 3: Villain has grudge against Stark, but is not solely motivated by it. Without Stark, villain might not have pursued villainy. Conflict may or may not have existed without Stark.

Winter Soldier: Hydra tries to take over world. Cap stops them. Positive achievement by Avenger (albeit setting up some future conflicts).

Thor 2: Malekith wants to destroy universe as we know it. Would not have capacity to do so if not for random investigation of weird stuff by Jane Foster, whose investigation is prompted by prior contacts between Asgard and Earth. Without those contacts, probably no threat.

GOTG: Ronan wants to destroy Xandar and acquire Infinity Stone. Guardians stop him. Positive Achievement!

Age of Ultron: Villain is created by two Avengers under the influence of another future Avenger, and proceeds to destroy a small country. MAJOR negative achievement by Avengers.

Ant-Man: Villain is using Pym's technology, would not pose a threat without Pym.

Civil War: Avengers fight each other, cause lots of damage. Incited by villain with grudge against Avengers, using information released by Cap and Widow in Winter Soldier. Confict would not exist without Avengers.

Conclusion: the presence of Thor and Iron Man causes net harm to Earth. Tony Stark makes everything worse: seriously, he's like Midas except everything he touches turns to shit. Confiscate Stark Industries in the basis of gross irresponsibility and destroy all reaming weapon or weaponizable tech,mand arrest Stark if he tries anything else paramilitary or conducts any further experiments with AI. Ask Thor to stay away from Earth, as his conflicts with his brother have caused the planet consideable collateral damage; ask him how he'd like it if the US and Russia showed up in Asgard and fought a nuclear war with each other there. The Hulk is dangerous, but usually only when people attack Bruce Banner or try to weaponize him, and Banner can't help it; leave the guy alone, or else give him a mansion, anything he wants, and some endorphin pills to take whenever he gets stressed. Either way, don't ever deluberately draw the Hulk out. Captain America has legitimately saved the world twice but has recently shifted into creating conflicts rather than solving them; he's still the only main Avenger with a net positive record. The Avengers as a team appear to do more harm than good; the team should not exist.

The Guardians have saved a world and have net positive results, meaning a team consisting entirely of criminals has a better record than the Avengers.

edited 12th Nov '16 5:18:39 PM by Galadriel

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64922: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:23:10 PM

The Aether portal going out of whack - leading to Jane coming across it and activating it - in Thor 2 was the result of the Convergence, which had nothing to do with the Aether itself or any of the characters involved. Given that there were already people at the site where it happened and portals were going nuts all over the place during that time, assuming that everything that happened could only have happened because of Jane's presence itself is pushing it. Going further back, Jane was investigating phenomenon like that before Thor's presence, and likely would have continued had he never showed up.

And either way, Malekith would still be out there waiting for the opportunity to destroy/darken the universe.

Also, in The Incredible Hulk the conflict as a whole is caused by the military's attempts to create a new super soldier, rather than Banner specifically. Banner didn't create the problem so much as he and Blonsky are symptoms of it.

edited 12th Nov '16 5:31:25 PM by KnownUnknown

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#64923: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:28:44 PM

Also Loki attacking Earth in Avengers is because of the Tesseract

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#64924: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:29:08 PM

Fair enough; I only saw TDW once and didn't remember it clearly. Since the whole universe was facing an external threat, that one goes in the positive column for Thor.

But in Avengers, it certainly seemed like Loki was the one who suggested Earth as a target. There were multiple potential Infinity Stones that Thanos could have sent him after, not all of which were on Earth.

edited 12th Nov '16 5:31:33 PM by Galadriel

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#64925: Nov 12th 2016 at 5:35:15 PM

It's possible Thanos knew about both the Eye and Tesseract. No other location has two stones.


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