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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#64701: Nov 3rd 2016 at 9:13:11 AM

I think it's still nice to have confirmation.

With so many supporting characters confirmed, I'm really hoping we will have at least one major fight sequence that includes absolutely everyone with any fighting skills at all.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64702: Nov 3rd 2016 at 9:25:29 AM

[up][up][up]I do.

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#64703: Nov 3rd 2016 at 9:35:42 AM

I figured Colleen would be included, but it's nice to have that confirmed.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#64704: Nov 3rd 2016 at 10:50:14 AM

I don't think Claire or Black Widow's breakouts were unexpected, exactly. They've gone well, but I don't think the studio's done anything they weren't already planning, aside from possibly expanding Claire's role in Luke Cage. But other than that, everything you're saying is true. I still can't be confident that fridging won't be a thing, though, because she's a female love interest and advisor figure who unifies all four series, and Mentor Occupational Hazard is yet another thing. Rosario Dawson's And Starring, Fake Guest Star status makes the idea that she might leave the franchise worrying in a meta sense as well. Yes, she's more fully realized than Coulson was before The Avengers, but the darker tone of The Defenders has demonstrated that the spectre of Anyone Can Die has already crept in.

But it would suck. I would much rather have what you're suggesting, @Swanpride, where she continues to be Night Nurse, someone who keeps these idiots patched up between seasons. They all need a conscience and anchor back to earth.

edited 3rd Nov '16 11:34:49 AM by Unsung

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64705: Nov 3rd 2016 at 10:55:04 AM

How about this: if she dies, everyone can say they knew it and it can be the new issue everyone spends 7 pages on end debating every 2 weeks, if she doesn't, we unanimously agree that even worrying about it was a waste of time, and we never bring up the possibility of Clair getting fridged again, or at least until Season 2 is announced.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64706: Nov 3rd 2016 at 11:30:53 AM

Where there is a popular female supporting character in an otherwise male-driven property, there will be a fear of fridging. It's something that fans of female supporting characters have to deal with, that other people don't think much about.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64707: Nov 3rd 2016 at 11:41:59 AM

And how many female characters have died in the MCU so far? Two. Frigga, who was pretty much a background character and Rosalind, whose fate was sealed from the get go. You might be able to make a case for Agent 33, but for one, her story was a little bit more complicated and she died to motivate the villain, not the hero Oh, and Peggy, but it is a little bit hard to count it as fridging when a 96 year old woman dies in her sleep.

Anyway, in a franchise which consists of 13 movies and five TV shows which have between them 132 episodes so far, this is not really a worrisome trend.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#64708: Nov 3rd 2016 at 11:43:54 AM

On the other hand, aside from Frigga the MCU has been pretty good about not killing off its female characters pointlessly (not that people won't still complain about Peggy in CW or Janet who they still don't realize isn't actually dead).

[up][nja] I forgot about the problems with AOS but it's basically its own little sub-bubble right now.

edited 3rd Nov '16 12:20:05 PM by AlleyOop

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64709: Nov 3rd 2016 at 11:44:56 AM

Rosalind was a blatant, unapologetic fridging played completely straight.

Frigga hit all the notes of a fridging except the part about having no agency in her death. She still died for Manpain, though.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#64710: Nov 3rd 2016 at 11:46:45 AM

I mean, way more female characters have died than that, like Brandt and Hensen in IM 3, that one nurse in Daredevil S2, Mrs. Carnitas, Hope Schlottman, her mother, that obnoxious old lady who lived next door to Jessica, Hogarth's ex-wife, Riva...

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64711: Nov 3rd 2016 at 11:58:01 AM

Well, a number of male characters have died too. You can't do a long-running franchise without killing off some characters along the way...and Reva was pretty much dead on arrival, it was never a question if she would die or not because she was already dead when we first learned of her existence. She is not different from Jessica Jones dead family or Matt's murdered father.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#64712: Nov 3rd 2016 at 12:10:27 PM

It's just that you said the only female characters who have died are Rosalind and friggin' Frigga.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#64713: Nov 3rd 2016 at 12:37:05 PM

It's not that female characters can't ever die as part of these stories, and for the most part the MCU's been pretty good about not overusing it. Rosalind was pretty bad, though, and too many characters have tragically lost their mothers (Frigga, Janet Van Dyne, Maria Stark— Steve was orphaned, depending on which movies are canon the Hulk's dad may have killed his mother, etc).

Anyway. Fridging seems like the obvious move to unite the Defenders. It's not a foregone conclusion or anything, but it's something that's going to keep bothering me until I know for sure that they didn't do it.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64714: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:13:34 PM

[up] Now you're giving me hope they'll kill off Stick to unite these guys... (My apologies to Stick fans.)

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#64715: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:15:30 PM

Stick is the real hero this world deserves.

Don't kill him.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#64716: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:29:22 PM

You can't do a long-running franchise without killing off some characters along the way...and Reva was pretty much dead on arrival, it was never a question if she would die or not because she was already dead when we first learned of her existence. She is not different from Jessica Jones dead family or Matt's murdered father.
I know a lot of people have had a problem with that as well. In Jessica Jones, Reva is purely there to cause angst for the other characters; she doesn't even get lines. Thankfully, Luke Cage's show did mitigate that somewhat, they actually give her an arc and a personality in the flashbacks.

[up] One of the reasons I'm happy that Hogarth is sort of a jerk is that it greatly reduces her chances of dying. Bury Your Gays is usually for nice people
... awww Pam's probably a goner, then.

I don't know if Stick works very well as character motivation; none of the characters who've met him seem to like him very much. In any case, we've already done that whole thing with the Avengers, I hope they're creative enough to think of something else.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:30:10 PM by Pseudopartition

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#64717: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:35:39 PM

Yeah, the fact that Reva's sole purpose in the plot was literally just to die in order to fuel other people's angst did not sit too kindly with a lot of people.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64718: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:53:32 PM

I haven't seen Luke Cage yet - my roomie got Destiny recently so Xbox time has been scarce - but in Jessica Jones, Reva wasn't fridged. She was a Posthumous Character who succumbed to Death by Origin Story. An Uncle Ben, not a Gwen Stacy.

What sets Claire and Reva apart is that Claire's an established character who's built up a fanbase and has a role of her own within the narrative that goes beyond conveniently dying in the first ten minutes to set the hero on his/her journey.

She's someone we've spent time getting to know, which is an important aspect of what makes suddenly dumping her in the plot grinder for cheap drama and Manpain into a Fridging.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:54:49 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#64719: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:53:53 PM

I'm of two minds with Reva. While she's a character written mostly in absence and that can be a problem, she's not solely there to spur Jessica's heroism or Kilgrave's villainy. She may not have any lines in JJ, but she's still a person rather than just a plot device, one who had a life and loved ones before she died. Her death isn't just forgotten once her narrative purpose is served— her memory persists and goes on to add further complications down the line.

If anything, I thought the way she was written in Luke Cage was one of the show's weaknesses. She gets lines, but she comes off as too good to be true right up until it's time to reveal her complicity at Seagate, so she can be written off, a little glibly, and Luke can move on.

I do wonder if we'll see more of her, in old tapes or something, if IGH and the Seagate experiments do end up being part of The Defenders.

edited 3rd Nov '16 5:31:59 PM by Unsung

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#64720: Nov 3rd 2016 at 2:53:51 PM

Killing off Stick to unite the Defenders wouldn't work. Jessica, Luke, and Danny are basically going to say "Really old man dies, news at 11", and Matt will probably grieve for a bit before saying "Eh, he was a jackass anyway."

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#64721: Nov 3rd 2016 at 2:58:38 PM

Why kill anyone at all to motivate the Defenders to get together? Killing established characters off to motivate others is often a lazy writing tool in general, and writers are slowly but surely learning to become less reliant on.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#64722: Nov 3rd 2016 at 3:02:59 PM

I don't think I'd want that either. I'd rather give them something else to unite over.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#64723: Nov 3rd 2016 at 3:15:16 PM

Uniting over their desire to protect the city isn't enough?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#64724: Nov 3rd 2016 at 3:20:31 PM

I think the question is what force or incident is considered enough of a big deal that it needs every one of them to team up together instead of just smaller partnerships or dealing with things in their part of the city on their own. I mean, gradually you could have them coalescing because it's easier to centralize then delegate, but a big dramatic threat is more immediately interesting than them just networking their way into becoming the Defenders over time.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#64725: Nov 3rd 2016 at 3:22:02 PM

All three of the heroes we've seen so far have some pretty bad lone wolf complexes, so I think they need more motivation than "hey, let's be pals and team up!", Jess and Luke's fling aside.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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