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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64551: Nov 1st 2016 at 7:47:53 AM

Wanda still ripped through Vibranium. Now granted, she was emotionally compromised at the time, and that boosts her powers, but it is still something that is within her capabilities. Shredding Tony's suit shouldn't be impossible for her.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64552: Nov 1st 2016 at 8:09:13 AM

An adult with a child's capacity for comprehending the world around her is, by definition, mentally disabled. I realize you guys are reaching for ways to absolve her, but trying to get her classified as emotionally childlike is not a line of defense you want to go down.

Hell, I'm pretty sure even if you get off on an insanity defense in court they still send you to an institution. One of the Artistic License – Law complaints people had about the movie Primal Fear is that the killer turns out to be a perfectly neurotypical man pretending to be mentally ill so he can avoid going to jail, which is treated as a big Karma Houdini victory, when in reality, he'd have a lot less freedom and privilege at a guarded mental institution than he would in most prisons.

Foggy, Malcolm, and Hogarth confirmed for Defenders.

The important question is, will Frank's dog be in it?

edited 1st Nov '16 8:11:01 AM by comicwriter

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64553: Nov 1st 2016 at 8:39:54 AM

Working with Ultron was about revenge. Disabling the Avengers was her way of contributing to the fight.
It's pretty clearly both.

No, it was clearly part of the plan. Like, this is indisputable. Wanda calls Banner "finishing the plan".
The plan to break the Avengers minds, not to send the Hulk loose. Again: we heard the plan when Ultron said that he wanted to "break" the Avengers.

And would do what to Iron Man, exactly? He's a bit above their pay grade.
Well, considering that Wanda already mind-whammied him once, I'd say that she could do that again. And I'm pretty sure that Tony doesn't have any response to Quicksilver's speed. So I'm not sure where you getting this "not in their paygrade" thing.

An adult with a child's capacity for comprehending the world around her is, by definition, mentally disabled.
Except Wanda is not in her twenties or thirties. She is clearly still a teen. I don't think you can say that she is "mentally disabled" unless you are calling all teens with trauma mentally disabled, because that is some Unfortunate Implications right there.

Ultron Prime was already incapacitated at the time and could do nothing to defend himself. Tony has Tank Missiles.
Which she can block. What part of "telekinesis" don't you understand? Hell, during the Civil War fight, she pulled down a shit ton of cars on him.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64554: Nov 1st 2016 at 8:53:41 AM

Wanda still ripped through Vibranium. Now granted, she was emotionally compromised at the time, and that boosts her powers, but it is still something that is within her capabilities. Shredding Tony's suit shouldn't be impossible for her.

Sure, I'll grant you that. Ultron Prime's death proves that shredding an unpiloted suit that is making no attempt to defend itself and is within arm's reach would not be beyond the reach of possibility for her powerset.

She'd still die in five seconds if she tried to stop Tony by hand during the South Africa battle. Which is why she doesn't. In fact, despite Tony being her and Pietro's archnemesis, the only time she even attempts to engage Tony directly is opportunistically during a brief moment when he's outside of his armor in Sokovia.

She's an ambush predator, seizing opportunities to hit Cap, Thor, and Nat when they least suspect her. She also tries it on Hawkeye. She's not a direct combatant and pointedly stays the f*ck away from the one person she actually has a grudge against. Because it's not clear if she can reach his mind through the helmet and there's only one possible way a knock-down brawl could end, she gives Tony a wide berth on the battlefield.

It's pretty clearly both.

It's pretty clearly not. As I noted, she has a grudge against exactly one person in South Africa and she avoids him like the plague. She's doing her part to carry out the plan. Nothing more.

The plan to break the Avengers minds, not to send the Hulk loose. Again: we heard the plan when Ultron said that he wanted to "break" the Avengers.

No, the plan is to obtain vibranium and get away to carry out the next phase of Ultron's goal without the Avengers stopping them. Breaking the Avengers is a means by which the plan can be carried out. It would have been futile, however, had they not done something to get Tony off his pursuit and that was the Hulk.

Well, considering that Wanda already mind-whammied him once, I'd say that she could do that again. And I'm pretty sure that Tony doesn't have any response to Quicksilver's speed. So I'm not sure where you getting this "not in their paygrade" thing.

Tony is unlikely to exit his armor and present himself to Wanda for another mind-whammy, and his response to Quicksilver is called "not being on the ground".

Except Wanda is not in her twenties or thirties. She is clearly still a teen. I don't think you can say that she is "mentally disabled" unless you are calling all teens with trauma mentally disabled, because that is some Unfortunate Implications right there.

There's a reason the military requires psychological profiling before they put people into combat. You want to go down this road, fine. I accept your premise. Wanda is a psychologically traumatized child and therefore has no business ever being an Avenger. She is mentally and emotionaly unfit to serve and belongs in an institution, not a combat zone.

Is that better?

Which she can block. What part of "telekinesis" don't you understand? Hell, during the Civil War fight, she pulled down a shit ton of cars on him.

During the Civil War fight, he and Nat openly acknowledge that they're softballing the fight halfway through. Once they start fighting for real, War Machine oneshots Wanda with a sonic emitter. She is not now nor has she ever been a threat to a fully-armed Iron Man suit and she knows it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64555: Nov 1st 2016 at 9:24:07 AM

Just for the record, if in Germany someone who is younger than 21 commits a crime, the court orders a psychologist to make a judgement concerning the emotional maturity of the defendant. If the court comes to the conclusion that the person in question for some reason didn't mature enough that he can be considered an adult, he won't be tried as one. That doesn't mean that someone is "mentally defective". Just that it makes a huge difference if you deal with someone who is already living on his own and makes all decisions in his life or someone who for one reason or another still hasn't really developed the maturity to really grasp the possible consequences of a crime, either because the person grew up too sheltered, or not sheltered enough.

In Wanda's case both is kind of true. She grew up not sheltered enough, but also had a big brother who pretty much did everything for her...and wasn't really mature either.

And, btw, Wanda was damn lucky that she wasn't the first victim of the Hulk. She has to get pretty close to do her mind whammy after all. Which is the main reason why I don't believe that she truly thought this through.

edited 1st Nov '16 9:24:40 AM by Swanpride

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#64556: Nov 1st 2016 at 9:58:05 AM

Before we move on can I just cast my vote for the 'Saying Wanda wasn't an Avenger during her attack in South Africa so her being on the team is A-Okay is cow pee drinkingly stupid' ballot ?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64557: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:02:52 AM

Everyone needs to get their lick in sometime.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#64558: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:09:34 AM

Can I cast my vote in "Seriously guys we've been going on about this for two days now and this isn't the first time it's been brought up so what else is there to talk about" ballot?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#64560: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:13:07 AM

Lets talk about Mantis.

She's pretty rad.

I suspect that she gets wifi on her antenna.

But she's also the friend who can't help dropping snide spoilers about shows you haven't seen yet and/or future events.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#64561: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:14:18 AM

[up][up][up] In my defense it is uniquely chuckle worthy.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#64562: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:18:54 AM

[up][up] I still wonder if she will still be Asian-American or will be alien entirely. Especially after the debacle with the Ancient One.

[down][down] I was talking about the character. Obviously, having an half Korean descent actress playing her is a step in the right direction, but Gunn is really adamant about Quill being the only human in the cast.

edited 1st Nov '16 10:26:28 AM by shatterstar

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64563: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:23:25 AM

The fact that Wanda wasn't an Avenger during the incident doesn't makes it irrelevant in itself, it just makes it irrelevant in the context of the Sokovia accord, which is about the question collateral damages the Avengers cause during their fights and if they should be allowed to operate without any supervision, and not about the question if former criminals should be allowed to be part of the Avengers. That question was already answered when Black Widow became a member. So far the only rule for membership is: You need special abilities and the willingness to defend the world.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#64564: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:24:19 AM

She's played by Pom Klementieff.

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#64565: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:27:10 AM

[up][up] And apparently any acts of terrorism you may have committed in the past are absolved.

And frankly in a movie centered around "accountability" the fact that Cap and Co unilaterally decided Wanda's crimes deserved none is kind of a big deal.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64566: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:28:25 AM

[up][up][up][up] Half-human, and Gunn is right about that. It is better if the human race isn't the sole source for the heroes of the universe. That automatically means that the Got G won't do much when it comes to showcase diverse characters in a classical sense, but it at least allows a bunch of diverse actors to get meaty roles which might lead to more.

[up] Yeah, because the US has never used the talents of people who were originally on the other side of the war for their own gain.....

edited 1st Nov '16 10:29:48 AM by Swanpride

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#64567: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:29:14 AM

I suspect that she will be an alien.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64568: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:36:11 AM

And, btw, Wanda was damn lucky that she wasn't the first victim of the Hulk. She has to get pretty close to do her mind whammy after all. Which is the main reason why I don't believe that she truly thought this through.

I would consider that evidence of the opposite. If she was taken offguard by Sudden Angry Hulk, her likelihood of getting pasted would increase.

That is, if her brother wasn't Quicksilver, anyway. His ability to just grab her and GTFO means it doesn't matter if she was surprised or not. Ultimately, it's an inconclusive piece of evidence for answering the mystery-that-is-not-actually-a-mystery-because-it-is-blatantly-spelled-out-in-the-movie.

Yeah, because the US has never used the talents of people who were originally on the other side of the war for their own gain.....

Wanda wasn't on the other side of a war. That presumes the existence of a war. Wanda was a terrorist.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64569: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:41:16 AM

I'm still proposing that toss everyone off a cliff solution.

Just so you all know.

One Strip! One Strip!
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#64570: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:42:47 AM

First of all [up][up] yes, Wanda was not a soldier, she was a terrorist enacting a personal vendetta and attacking civilians to do so.

SecondYeah, because the US has never used the talents of people who were originally on the other side of the war for their own gain..... that's typically not seen as a good thing.

edited 1st Nov '16 10:42:59 AM by thatindiantroper

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64571: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:44:40 AM

Also, for what it's worth, South Africa's laws on age of criminal responsibility are as follows:

A child who commits an offence while under the age of 10 is not considered to have criminal capacity and so cannot be prosecuted. A child who is older than 10 but younger than 14 is presumed to lack criminal capacity unless the State proves otherwise. In order to prove that a child has criminal capacity, the State must demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that the child was able to appreciate the difference between right and wrong at the time of the commission of the alleged offence and to act in accordance with that appreciation.

So unless Wanda was under the age of 14 at the time, South Africa - the nation where her crime was committed - isn't buying the "Not emotionally mature enough to understand what she was doing" line of argument.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64572: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:46:11 AM

I'm pretty excited about Mantis, too. I also hope that Gamorra gets more to do this time around, she was a bit too generically stoic warrior woman in the first one. Do you think Yondu and Nebula will be with the good guys all the way through, or will one of them (or both) try to betray the others?

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#64573: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:46:48 AM

I expect a sudden but inevitable betrayal.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#64574: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:48:08 AM

[up][up][up] Why do you know that ?

edited 1st Nov '16 10:48:19 AM by thatindiantroper

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64575: Nov 1st 2016 at 10:50:48 AM

Because I like to research my discussion points.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm on a federal watch list for the research I've done in conversations about things like age of consent.

edited 1st Nov '16 10:53:47 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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