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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#64476: Oct 31st 2016 at 2:17:09 AM

That one of her attacks results in the Hulk going on a rampage is one of the unpredictable consequences of one of her attacks, but that is not what she was going for.

Again, there is no evidence to back this up. Wanda never says she didn't want the Hulk to do this.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64477: Oct 31st 2016 at 2:24:26 AM

[up] There is no evidence that she did, either, and considering that all her other victims reacted with being barely able to move and trapped in their own set of nightmares, I really don't see how she could have known that Hulk would do the opposite. It was a possibility, but then I would have to assume that Wanda has a strategic mind. She doesn't, she is as impulsive as Tony is, perhaps even more so.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#64478: Oct 31st 2016 at 2:36:29 AM

Tony didn't react that way and remember we don't see what Hulk sees during that rampage. The last time Hulk went on a rampage was when he under the influence of Loki's sceptre.

And if Wanda didn't know Hulk would react that way, that still doesn't change the fact she used her powers to psychologically torture him and his teammates.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#64479: Oct 31st 2016 at 5:51:30 AM

We see Natasha's training as the Black Widow in flashbacks one of which involves her killing a man. She discusses it again with Bruce later on. It's not much but it's more than Wanda gets.

I thought Natasha's crimes were glossed over.

What movie did you guys watch? Ao U clearly said that Natasha thought she was a monster because she's barren. [lol]

Cross (Don’t ask)
#64480: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:00:21 AM

Honestly no matter how look at it the goal seems to have been to get Hulk rampaging, whether or not innocent people got hurt didn't seem to get any thought.

While Natasha may have been trained from a very young age to be an assassin, Wanda and Pietro had a hatred of Tony Stark instilled in them when they were very young. Remember: they were trapped for days starring at the bomb that killed their parents and the name on the bomb was "Stark." So Natasha and Wanda have very different backstories, but both ended up doing terrible things and then trying to atone for them.

Because being conditioned to commit crimes is comparable to holding a grudge? What's more the twins need for revenge was completely misdirected since as far as we're aware Tony had nothing to do with it, hell chances are he didn't even sell those people the bomb. And it doesn't help that Pietro wanted to kill Stark just to be done with all of it, while Wanda wanted him to self destruct taking the Avengers with him.

[up]I know you're joking, but can we not bring that up again.

edited 31st Oct '16 6:01:33 AM by Cross

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#64481: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:08:53 AM

Why not? It shares the same problem that the Tony/Wanda feud shares:

Editing so poor, it would make the DCEU look at it and go "Dude, git gud" tongue

edited 31st Oct '16 6:12:58 AM by NoName999

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64482: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:18:36 AM

The film mentions three previous events during which the Accords wouldn't have helped; The Avengers, Age of Ultron and Thor: The Dark World.
Uh, no, the film doesn't mention Thor: The Dark World at all. It mentions Avengers, Winter Soldier, and Age of Ultron, all three movies where the climax involved Avengers.

the Accords aren't stopping collateral damage, they are about keeping the Avengers from acting like lawless thugs.
And Wanda wasn't an Avenger during Johannesburg, so again, not relevant.

He is, however, a guy who was working with Wanda.
And? What part of "He's Ultron, he's not reliable" is not understandable?

Seriously, at no point does Wanda even say she didn't want the Hulk to attack that city.
And at no point does she say that she wants him to attack the city. That's the point: we don't see her mind-controlling him. So you can say that she let him loose on the city on purpose because you don't know. Nobody knows.

So why is Zemo a bad guy in Civil War? After all he does the exact same thing as Wanda for similar reasons yet the movie treats him being locked up as a good thing. hell, Zemo has more reasons to target the Avengers as a whole than Wanda.
I'm sorry, did Zemo only attack one person? No, he bombed the UN and framed Bucky for it and then killed another person. That's not "attacking a single person or group."

Because being conditioned to commit crimes is comparable to holding a grudge?
I'm pretty sure that goes far beyond "holding a grudge." Don't soft-peddle the twin's backstory — again, they voluntarily joined Hydra in order to get powers and get revenge on Tony Stark. The war that killed their parents never ended for them.

edited 31st Oct '16 6:19:07 AM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#64483: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:20:48 AM

Can't we agree to disagree on this?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64484: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:31:07 AM

One thing for sure, no matter how old Wanda actually is, emotionally I don't see her as an adult. Let's recap: She looses her parents in a traumatic event, grows up in poverty with only Pietro as family and then they both agree to participate in Hydra experiments - experiments in which they were the only survivors. None of this spells out "normal childhood in a stable environment which allows a healthy emotional development"....in fact in Age of Ultron, the twins are pretty much acting as if they are just playing around, until everything breaks down around them and Wanda has her "what have I done" moment.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#64485: Oct 31st 2016 at 7:04:50 AM

And Wanda wasn't an Avenger during Johannesburg, so again, not relevant.

You saying that doesn't make it any more true.

And? What part of "He's Ultron, he's not reliable" is not understandable?

So what reason do you think there was for "you'll have to catch Dr. Banner" line then?

And at no point does she say that she wants him to attack the city. That's the point: we don't see her mind-controlling him. So you can say that she let him loose on the city on purpose because you don't know. Nobody knows.

We see her saying that she wants the Hulk and the next time we see him he's rampaging through the city. Seriously, put two and two together. You insisting this is not what she wanted is Mr Fantastic level of reaching since at no point does she claim she did not want this outcome.

I'm sorry, did Zemo only attack one person? No, he bombed the UN and framed Bucky for it and then killed another person. That's not "attacking a single person or group."

And the Twins attacked people (The other Avengers) who had nothing to do with their parents deaths. Hell, as someone pointed out, it's questionable if Stark was even the one who sold the bomb and not Stane. Again, why does Zemo get thrown in prison for this while Wanda is allowed to walk free?

One thing for sure, no matter how old Wanda actually is, emotionally I don't see her as an adult. Let's recap: She looses her parents in a traumatic event, grows up in poverty with only Pietro as family and then they both agree to participate in Hydra experiments - experiments in which they were the only survivors. None of this spells out "normal childhood in a stable environment which allows a healthy emotional development"....in fact in Age of Ultron, the twins are pretty much acting as if they are just playing around, until everything breaks down around them and Wanda has her "what have I done" moment.

Which is all the more reason why she should not be placed in situations where her actions affect whether or not people die. It's just one of many reasons why the Avengers placing her on the team is morally questionable at best.

edited 31st Oct '16 7:06:09 AM by windleopard

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64486: Oct 31st 2016 at 7:15:52 AM

[up] It's the best solution. It is certainly better than putting her in a straight jacket and a freaking collar!

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64487: Oct 31st 2016 at 7:35:53 AM

There is no evidence that she did, either, and considering that all her other victims reacted with being barely able to move and trapped in their own set of nightmares, I really don't see how she could have known that Hulk would do the opposite. It was a possibility, but then I would have to assume that Wanda has a strategic mind. She doesn't, she is as impulsive as Tony is, perhaps even more so.

She had no reason to seek out the Hulk if she didn't know. That's the biggest hole in this Fix Fic theory you guys keep hammering out.

Based on the scenario you describe, the plan was:

  • Wanda wastes time disabling Banner for no reason.
  • Ultron makes pointless threats about Banner that don't mean anything because Banner isn't doing anything.
  • Iron Man has no distraction preventing him from catching up to Ultron's exit strategy.

At no point does the film treat it like Wanda and Ultron are stupid idiots with no idea what the other is doing in the field and only by the purest of coincidences were they not defeated right then and there. Wanda asks Pietro to bring her the Hulk and immediately after, Ultron taunts Stark about the impending rampage.

You're trying to manufacture an ambiguous plot point out of one that is anything but. You can say, "Well, regardless of the blatant intent and countless corroborating evidence, technically, they never SAID" about anything. You can't PROVE that Captain America hasn't been a Hydra agent all this time. There's no reason to believe that and it's frankly stupid to even suggest, but nobody's ever said he CAN'T be one.

This is a pointless line of argument. Nobody's buying it because it's utterly ridiculous to claim that Wanda was an innocent, naïve victim who never meant for the Hulk to go nuts like that.

And Wanda wasn't an Avenger during Johannesburg, so again, not relevant.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to welcome our newest member of the FBI, Osama bin Laden."

"Objection! He's committed SO MANY CRIMES. What the f*ck?"

"He wasn't working for the FBI when he committed those crimes so they aren't relevant to anything, Bob."

It's the best solution. It is certainly better than putting her in a straight jacket and a freaking collar!

In what way? Now, I do agree that having Wanda as an Avenger as a sort of a work-release program is optimal, but I'm curious because you also said this.

One thing for sure, no matter how old Wanda actually is, emotionally I don't see her as an adult. Let's recap: She looses her parents in a traumatic event, grows up in poverty with only Pietro as family and then they both agree to participate in Hydra experiments - experiments in which they were the only survivors. None of this spells out "normal childhood in a stable environment which allows a healthy emotional development"....in fact in Age of Ultron, the twins are pretty much acting as if they are just playing around, until everything breaks down around them and Wanda has her "what have I done" moment.

You've posited that Wanda has a diminished capacity to understand her actions and the consequences that surround them. That her crimes are caused by her and Pietro being emotionally unstable. That they have the maturity level of children and cannot comprehend what they've done.

This would effectively define her as legitimately insane. But rather than mitigate her crimes, this explanation serves only as a fantastic reason to keep her off the Avengers. If Wanda is so unstable, why should she be part of a globe-trotting peacekeeping force instead of in a secure facility receiving professional treatment?

edited 31st Oct '16 7:36:31 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#64488: Oct 31st 2016 at 8:08:09 AM

It's the best solution.

Yeah, no it isn't.

It is certainly better than putting her in a straight jacket and a freaking collar!

Yes, lets ignore the fact that those restraints were to keep her from breaking out and possibly hurting other people with her powers

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64489: Oct 31st 2016 at 8:10:20 AM

Because of course a straightjacket can stop telekinesis.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64490: Oct 31st 2016 at 8:11:42 AM

It might, actually. She uses elaborate hand gestures to manifest her powers. She might not have the Still Spell feat.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#64491: Oct 31st 2016 at 8:12:47 AM

[nja]

edited 31st Oct '16 8:13:33 AM by windleopard

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#64492: Oct 31st 2016 at 8:14:00 AM

"Tony tried to murder Bucky for actions that Bucky had no control over committing, which is a far more serious wrong. "

To be fair, is not that what drive Tony mad, is that Cap, the one lecture him about stand for your ideal only to see throwing that away in the moment his buddy is in the line, this echo what Tony said earlier in the movie "I want to punch your perfect teef....but I dont want to be mad at you"

". You know why? Because we don't actually hear anything about them. Only that she has "red in her ledger." Nobody mentions anything she's done aside from Loki's vague asides"

And if I have to guess is for the same reason as Wanda: they make the chararter to unlikable to be seen as superhero, not surprising we only see the part of her backstory that make her likable.

". Wanda asks Pietro to bring her the Hulk and immediately after, Ultron taunts Stark about the impending rampage."

More important, we are taking about Ultron, a chrarter being described as Tony Stark jr, if someone know the weakness of every member of the team it should be him

Anyway since people like to bring the whole "but Tony did worst!" my answer is: yeah but the movie actually punish him for that....quite a lot, I most said, the same movie judge Bucky,T´challa and Zemo actions....but leave Wanda out, making her stand out

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64493: Oct 31st 2016 at 8:15:43 AM

A straightjacket would have no effect on her ability to wiggle her fingers.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#64494: Oct 31st 2016 at 8:19:05 AM

Feel a bit bad for the Russos.

Joss Whedon handed them a Wanda that committed some really bad acts, put her on the team at the end and then ran off cackling. Not his problem anymore.

And Marvel asked the Russos to do a big Avengers 2.5 Cap movie to compete with Batman v Superman ensuring that not only was Wanda going to be required, that there wouldn't be room to really address her AOU actions.

Curse you, Whedon. Curse youuu.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64495: Oct 31st 2016 at 8:26:42 AM

Seriously. Fifteen seconds of dialogue.

  • Cap: What about Wanda? Any news with her?
  • Stark: The ICC's agreed to remand Wanda into our custody while they deliberate legitimizing us as official U.N. peacekeepers. That speech you delivered really stirred them.

Whedon could have put it in the Worthiest Elevator scene and then none of this would be an issue.

edited 31st Oct '16 8:27:27 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#64496: Oct 31st 2016 at 8:27:51 AM

But fifteen seconds may have broken his asinine goal for Age of Ultron to be shorter than Avengers. And that's terrible. As terrible as stealing forty cakes.

CURSE YOU WHEDOOOOOOOON

edited 31st Oct '16 8:28:17 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64497: Oct 31st 2016 at 9:06:37 AM

Can't we agree to disagree on this?

Looks like we can't...

Let's blame Ike Perlmutter.

edited 31st Oct '16 9:07:22 AM by hollygoolightly

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64498: Oct 31st 2016 at 9:28:28 AM

Seriously. Fifteen seconds of dialogue. Cap: What about Wanda? Any news with her? Stark: The ICC's agreed to remand Wanda into our custody while they deliberate legitimizing us as official U.N. peacekeepers. That speech you delivered really stirred them. Whedon could have put it in the Worthiest Elevator scene and then none of this would be an issue.

Bullshit. We absolutely needed more time of Thor standing in a magic puddle to set up future movies.

edited 31st Oct '16 9:30:33 AM by comicwriter

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#64500: Oct 31st 2016 at 11:36:28 AM

Awesome!

When we're done, there won't be anything left.

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