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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#64451: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:07:55 PM

I liked this analogy for Steve and Tony: Officer Steve and Officer Tony are both cops. Officer Tony finds out that Officer Steve slept with his wife. Officer Tony is perfectly justified in being pissed. He's not justified in pulling out his service pistol and trying to shoot Officer Steve dead.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64452: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:10:05 PM

[up][up]Bucky killed people. Even if he wasn't in control of his actions, he'd been triggered and went and killed even more people in the facility. That's kinda the point of Ross preparing to send another force after them right before Tony intervenes and offers to capture them himself.

Ross did not know about Zemo. So based on the info he did have, either Bucky was still killing people of his own free will, or his brain was so badly warped that he'd randomly started murdering people again just because. Either one sounds like a perfectly rational reason to put a bullet in his skull, particularly since he'd just busted his way out of the non-lethal confinement they put him in.

It's tragic and sad, but there's a reason they put tend to put down animals who have lashed out and attacked people.

edited 30th Oct '16 4:11:49 PM by comicwriter

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#64453: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:16:23 PM

[up][up] More like Officer Tony wants to shoot Bucky who slept with Tony's wife, and Officer Steve is his brother who never caught them in the act but saw her go into Bucky's house and never told Tony.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64454: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:16:45 PM

[up][up] I meant Bucharest, but even in Berlin, you have the strangely missing psychiatrist and the conveniently timed failing electricity. Seems wiser to capture the guy who is most likely to tell you who or what triggered him. This was admittedly hampered by Steve and Sam making off with Bucky, but at that point they were beyond trusting anyone. Which from their POV makes sense.

[up] Except Bucky was roofied by someone who hated both Steve and Tony's wife. I think this little metaphorical story got weird really fast.

edited 30th Oct '16 4:22:11 PM by hollygoolightly

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64455: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:23:47 PM

[up]

I don't know about that, but I do know that Metaphorical bros don't let metaphorical bros sleep with their other metaphorical bros metaphorical wives.

It's just not classy.

One Strip! One Strip!
hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64456: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:28:46 PM

[up]They would probably all benefit from some nice metaphorical group therapy with a metaphorical fake psychiatrist.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64457: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:30:35 PM

[up][up][up]The "conveniently timed failed electricity" could easily been Cap or Falcon, given they'd already interfered with one attempt to get Bucky. And there's again the matter of him murdering people on the way out. That seems like a pretty justifiable case for putting him down at that point.

edited 30th Oct '16 4:30:55 PM by comicwriter

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#64458: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:41:13 PM

I agree with the sentiment that Tony was wrong for trying to kill Bucky, but it's understandable why he did. It seems like a textbook example of 'crime of passion'. I think the key is what he does after. In the next movie, now that he's had a couple years to think it over (since Marvel seems to space things in 'real time', with two years between movie releases also being two years within the movie-verse) he shouldn't still be out to kill Bucky. Heat-of-the-moment action is one thing; having that long to calm down, think, and look at all the facts and still going "nope, I'm gonna kill the bastard" would make him look like a legitimate villain. Indeed; the only difference between him and Zemo -or him and pre-Avenger Wanda, for that matter- would be the lack of collateral damage.

And since the next Avengers movie is Infinity Wars, I doubt Marvel is going to turn MCU Tony Stark into an actual villain. Although if the Russo's were in charge they could do it, and do it well. They could present him as objectively villainous, but have it be believable and understandable, rather than turning him into a parody of his worst traits.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64459: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:41:36 PM

[up][up] I actually have to defend Ross (Secretary edition) here, because he wanted to put Bucky down before, in Bucharest. He talks about that to Tony (basically verifying what Sharon told Steve before). Afterwards he actually wants to bring in everybody.

The electricity failure couldn't have been caused by Cap or Falcon, because at that point they were both in custody and had been since Bucharest. In fairness, we don't know if anybody bothered to further look into that, because the action moves away from the task force. It's possible that while Ross (Secretary edition) was busy yelling at Tony, the other Ross actually had his agents do some detecting.

edited 30th Oct '16 4:42:17 PM by hollygoolightly

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64460: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:43:58 PM

I liked this analogy for Steve and Tony: Officer Steve and Officer Tony are both cops. Officer Tony finds out that Officer Steve slept with his wife. Officer Tony is perfectly justified in being pissed. He's not justified in pulling out his service pistol and trying to shoot Officer Steve dead.

Steve isn't a cop. Apart from that, it works.

Ross did not know about Zemo. So based on the info he did have, either Bucky was still killing people of his own free will, or his brain was so badly warped that he'd randomly started murdering people again just because. Either one sounds like a perfectly rational reason to put a bullet in his skull, particularly since he'd just busted his way out of the non-lethal confinement they put him in.

Or he's still in service to Hydra. With the limited intel available at the time, there's no proof that Bucky ever stopped working with them. Hydra sending the Winter Soldier to take out King T'Chaka is a perfectly believable scenario.

I meant Bucharest, but even in Berlin, you have the strangely missing psychiatrist and the conveniently timed failing electricity. Seems wiser to capture the guy who is most likely to tell you who or what triggered him. This was admittedly hampered by Steve and Sam making off with Bucky, but at that point they were beyond trusting anyone. Which from their POV makes sense.

Capturing the Winter Soldier assumes the presence of people capable of capturing the Winter Soldier. A nonlethal incapacitation is much harder than killing someone, and when your target is as dangerous as Bucky, coming at him with the plan, "Let's softball this and be sure not to harm him! The target's safety is our number one priority!" is tantamount to suicide.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64461: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:48:06 PM

The electricity failure couldn't have been caused by Cap or Falcon

Right it could have just been someone working with them. Kinda like that whole team they have showing up to help them later in the movie. I'm sure Ross is smart enough to realize Cap is the kind of person who'd have allies.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64462: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:49:14 PM

[up][up] The presence of people able to capture the Winter Soldier can easily be guaranteed - sent in War Machine. He signed the Accords, and he has that huge baton-thingy which he later used on Wanda - I bet that would easily work on Bucky, too. And we know he could have been there in time, because he was there in time - they only called him in later than they should have done.

[up] Leaving aside the issue of neither Falcon or Cap having the possibility to alert said allies, Ross could have assumed that. However, he still would have needed to have someone look into it.

edited 30th Oct '16 4:52:03 PM by hollygoolightly

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64463: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:55:07 PM

Leaving aside the issue of neither Falcon or Cap having the possibility to alert said allies

Their allies found out on their own. There were other members of Cap's little squad that was there to catch Bucky who managed to evade police detection. Cap had a special hidden radio. Sam sent a messenger pigeon. Bucky left a trail of plums. There's probably dozens of ways.

edited 30th Oct '16 4:57:36 PM by comicwriter

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64464: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:58:51 PM

[up] We should go with the messenger pigeon. (They probably checked it out anyway, Zemo just helped them put everything together a bit faster by letting his landlady find the dead shrink.)

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#64465: Oct 30th 2016 at 5:01:07 PM

War Machine doesn't exactly fit comfortably into a small apartment. As much as enclosed spaces handicapped Iron Man during the finale, putting Rhodey against Bucky in the cramped apartment would have been even more of a handicap. He could undoubtedly handle it, but with his arsenal, not those crappy stun sticks.

He's not exactly optimized for nonlethal takedowns or enclosed confines. It'd be like plowing a tank through a restaurant in order to fire a taser mounted on the front of it.

edited 30th Oct '16 5:01:53 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64466: Oct 30th 2016 at 5:07:06 PM

Because Black Widow's past crimes are at least acknowledged in the film. Wanda's are glossed over and the movie treats her like an angel.
1) Black Widow's crimes are completely glossed over. You know why? Because we don't actually hear anything about them. Only that she has "red in her ledger." Nobody mentions anything she's done aside from Loki's vague asides. 2) Wanda is, again, not treated "like an angel." That's just clearly not true. She's treated the same as Black Widow, pretty much.

If you hadn't watched Age of Ultron (though admittedly, I don't know why you'd watch CW but not the movie that directly sets it up) you'd have no idea she's a reformed supervillain who likely got a bunch of people injured or even killed.
And if you hadn't watched the past movies, you wouldn't know that Black Widow is a former assassin. Not explaining exactly what happened in the previous movie is not a bad thing. Not having to have seen the previous movie to understand what's going on is actually a good thing.

Like someone else said, Civil War having even a token mention of the shit she pulled in South Africa would have alleviated the situation.
It also would have taken time away from something more important in a movie that was already stuffed to the gills.

Wanda's not going to be showing up in any films until then so it's unlikely they'll ever bring the issue of Wanda's guilt over Ultron back up without it feeling like Negative Continuity.
I fail to see how you could possibly predict something that hasn't happened or hasn't been written yet. I'd say that, actually, it's likely they will bring up the fact of Wanda's guilt. Because it's one of her defining characteristics. She feels guilty for her actions. She is trying to atone. That's kind of built into her character. I understand that the writers may have stated they saw her as "innocent," but that doesn't mean they will write her as such. They didn't write her as innocent in Civil War (where she was responsible for a dozen deaths), so I'm not really seeing the issue.

That's shitty, but he didn't set out to kill her parents. Wanda did.
Wanda set out to kill Tony's parents? Just kidding. But actually, we don't know what Wanda wanted to do with the Hulk. It's entirely possible that she didn't set out to unleash him on the city, but rather the other Avengers and he simply got out of her control. You can't say that she meant to unleash the Hulk on Johannesburg, because we don't see the scene where she finds him.

And I'd said again, he probably wouldn't have had that little mental break had a certain someone not conveniently hidden that information from him because the killer is his ole' buddy ole' pal.
You can't know this. He might have had a better reaction or he might have had a worse reaction and hunted down Bucky like Ahab hunted the White Whale.

edited 30th Oct '16 5:07:52 PM by alliterator

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#64467: Oct 30th 2016 at 5:09:22 PM

How responsible Bucky is depends on how HYDRA's brainwashing works. It makes him follow their orders, sure, but it's clearly not the sort of deal where they just control his body like a puppet. His missions required that he be able to use his own initiative and decision making skills out in the field, since there's not gonna be a HYDRA commander standing nearby directing his every movement, so he still has to maintain a certain amount of free will. Given the HYDRA techs made mention of regularly erasing memories, it's possible their brainwashing works less on the principle of overriding the subject's free will and personality, and more on the principle of rewriting the subject's personality so that they feel unwavering dedication to whatever HYDRA commands.

Of course, Bucky never asked for any of that. The version of Bucky who was captured by HYDRA was an innocent. But it's unclear how much of that Bucky still exists, and how much he's still the person HYDRA made him into, just in standby mode since everyone with the authority to give him orders is gone.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64468: Oct 30th 2016 at 5:23:59 PM

[up] (Slightly rewriting this for clarity) From what we saw in the movie, the wipes take away his memory, while the trigger phrase oppresses part of his personality and makes him obey the person who says them. They are not repeatedly wiping him to rewrite his personality, they have to because the serum causes his brain to heal the damage, meaning the longer he is not wiped the more likely it is his memories will return (seeing Steve plus hearing his name plus being out of cryo very long and not getting regular wipes = memories coming back), and he'll start "acting erratically", in the words of the HYDRA technicians.

We also see that when Bucky's not wiped and the trigger phrase wears off (or gets knocked out of him by hitting him on the head really hard, per Natasha's dealings with a brainwashed Clint), he feels horrified by the thought of what he may have done under influence and he repeatedly makes clear that on his own, he wouldn't act violently. So, the person right now, whether he still has much of the original Bucky left or not, doesn't want to be a murderer, and doesn't want to be forced to act as one, to the point where he lets himself be put on ice as long as there is still a chance for that. That isn't a murderbot on stand-by, that is a guy making clear moral decisions and acting on them.

And the guy inbetween doesn't really seem to have the facilities to make informed decisions. I'm pretty sure he'd be ruled as non compos mentis.

edited 30th Oct '16 5:38:36 PM by hollygoolightly

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#64469: Oct 30th 2016 at 5:34:20 PM

Wanda needs a movie of her own or paired up with another side main character (Hawkeye or Vision seem likeliest but imagine a Black Widow team-up movie. Wanda wants redemption. Natasha knows a thing or two about that).

Its subjective whether Wanda working for the Avengers meaningfully redeems her for what she caused, whatever her intentions. But that's the situation the movies set up for her.

With all the infinity warring thats going to be going on, I don't see Wanda getting a meaty subplot.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
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#64470: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:55:13 PM

I don't feel comfortable with the comparison of Wanda's crimes to Natasha's since what little we know of the latter brings up that she was a Child Soldier

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64471: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:13:38 PM

I don't feel comfortable with the comparison of Wanda's crimes to Natasha's since what little we know of the latter brings up that she was a Child Soldier
While Natasha may have been trained from a very young age to be an assassin, Wanda and Pietro had a hatred of Tony Stark instilled in them when they were very young. Remember: they were trapped for days starring at the bomb that killed their parents and the name on the bomb was "Stark."

So Natasha and Wanda have very different backstories, but both ended up doing terrible things and then trying to atone for them.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#64472: Oct 30th 2016 at 11:09:40 PM

Tony is a businessman who sold a bomb to someone who then used it in the city Wanda is living in. That's shitty, but he didn't set out to kill her parents. Wanda did. She deliberately made the Hulk crazy and then set him loose in a populated civilian city, with the stated goal of tarnishing the Avengers and, as Ultron put it, "Tearing them apart from the inside."

Hell, are we sure it was Stark and not Stane who sold the bomb?

1) Black Widow's crimes are completely glossed over. You know why? Because we don't actually hear anything about them. Only that she has "red in her ledger." Nobody mentions anything she's done aside from Loki's vague asides.

We see Natasha's training as the Black Widow in flashbacks one of which involves her killing a man. She discusses it again with Bruce later on. It's not much but it's more than Wanda gets.

And if you hadn't watched the past movies, you wouldn't know that Black Widow is a former assassin.

I thought Natasha's crimes were glossed over.

It also would have taken time away from something more important in a movie that was already stuffed to the gills.

Like what? I fail to see how Wanda's actions in South Africa weren't relevant but something like Steve/Sharon was totally necessary.

But actually, we don't know what Wanda wanted to do with the Hulk. It's entirely possible that she didn't set out to unleash him on the city, but rather the other Avengers and he simply got out of her control. You can't say that she meant to unleash the Hulk on Johannesburg, because we don't see the scene where she finds him.

We hear Wanda saying, "I want to finish the plan, I want the big one" and she's clearly talking about the Hulk. Then Ultron says to Tony, "You'd better hope you can catch Dr, Banner". There is nothing in this movie that even implies they never meant to set the Hulk loose on Johannesburg especially with all the talk of the villains tarnishing the Avengers' name.

Even if we go by your hypothesis, how does that make Wanda look better? "Oh, she didn't want the Hulk to attack Johannesburg, she just wanted him to attack and possibly kill his friends."

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64473: Oct 31st 2016 at 12:03:30 AM

We see Natasha's training as the Black Widow in flashbacks one of which involves her killing a man. She discusses it again with Bruce later on. It's not much but it's more than Wanda gets.
Actually, it's about the same as what Wanda gets: we get a glimpse of Natasha's past and in Age of Ultron, we heard Wanda talk about why she hates Tony Stark so much.

I thought Natasha's crimes were glossed over.
They are glossed over in The Avengers. In Civil War, they aren't even mentioned.

Like what? I fail to see how Wanda's actions in South Africa weren't relevant but something like Steve/Sharon was totally necessary.
I fail to see how Wanda's actions are relevant to the movie. Again: she wasn't an Avenger at the time and the Sokovia Accords wouldn't have helped at all. Her actions in the Civil War while she is an Avenger, however, are mentioned a lot.

There is nothing in this movie that even implies they never meant to set the Hulk loose on Johannesburg especially with all the talk of the villains tarnishing the Avengers' name.
How does "I want the big one" mean "I want to let the Hulk loose on the city"? It doesn't. There is nothing to indicate that she meant to do that, only that it happened. And anything that Ultron says can be dismissed because he's Ultron, not Wanda.

Also, what talk about tarnishing their name? I don't remember Ultron even saying that he wanted to tarnish the Avengers' name, only that he wanted to "tear them apart."

Even if we go by your hypothesis, how does that make Wanda look better? "Oh, she didn't want the Hulk to attack Johannesburg, she just wanted him to attack and possibly kill his friends."
Because attacking a single person or group for revenge is a lot easier to forgive than attacking an entire city. After all, lots of fans appear to be completely forgiving Tony of attacking and trying to kill Bucky.

edited 31st Oct '16 12:05:39 AM by alliterator

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#64474: Oct 31st 2016 at 1:26:38 AM

I fail to see how Wanda's actions are relevant to the movie. Again: she wasn't an Avenger at the time and the Sokovia Accords wouldn't have helped at all. Her actions in the Civil War while she is an Avenger, however, are mentioned a lot.

The film mentions three previous events during which the Accords wouldn't have helped; The Avengers, Age of Ultron and Thor: The Dark World. the Accords aren't stopping collateral damage, they are about keeping the Avengers from acting like lawless thugs. Which they do several times. Wanda is very much relevant because even if she wasn't an Avenger then she is one now.

And anything that Ultron says can be dismissed because he's Ultron, not Wanda.

He is, however, a guy who was working with Wanda.

Seriously, at no point does Wanda even say she didn't want the Hulk to attack that city. Never mind that she actually sought him out. There's more evidence to support that the outcome was exactly the one she wanted.

Because attacking a single person or group for revenge is a lot easier to forgive than attacking an entire city. After all, lots of fans appear to be completely forgiving Tony of attacking and trying to kill Bucky.

So why is Zemo a bad guy in Civil War? After all he does the exact same thing as Wanda for similar reasons yet the movie treats him being locked up as a good thing. hell, Zemo has more reasons to target the Avengers as a whole than Wanda.

Makes me wonder how fans would react if someone who lost a loved one in Johannesburg went after Wanda.

edited 31st Oct '16 1:28:13 AM by windleopard

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64475: Oct 31st 2016 at 2:05:21 AM

No, he doesn't. Wanda fights the Avengers and she only attacks the Avengers or people working for the Avengers/Stark industries. That one of her attacks results in the Hulk going on a rampage is one of the unpredictable consequences of one of her attacks, but that is not what she was going for. She is like a freedom fighter which realizes at the end of the movie that her path was the wrong one when her actions have a backlash and hit the people she was actually fighting for.

Zemo on the other hand deliberately kills innocent people to get what he wants. That is not the same at all.


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