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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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I haven't really paid attention to it before, but recently it seemed to be because people felt he took up too much space in a movie that should have been Steve's. (Not my opinion, but I've seen that a lot, and that's where I saw most of the negativity against Tony.)
edited 30th Oct '16 9:29:07 AM by hollygoolightly
I would honestly have no problem with that.
Um, yes there is. The Raft did a good job of it. The only reason she's free is because of Steve.
A fat load of good that did.
I'm sure that's of real comfort to the people of Johannesburg.
Oh, great, another "Tony is such a poor whoobie and everyone is soooooo unfair to him" discussion.
The whole point of Civil war is that both sides are kind of right and both sides are kind of wrong....and everyone makes mistakes. But you won't heal the team by discussing who made when which mistake. You do it by rebuilding trust and actually tackling the issues which tore them apart. I can't imagine a better way for Tony do come to terms with what Bucky did than actually having to deal with Bucky in order to heal him. And I can't imagine a bigger gesture of trust than Steve allowing Tony to screw around in Bucky's mind. That is why I really like the idea that Barf will be the solution to Bucky's triggers and at least part of his emotional problems.
Because if there is ANY character which truly deserves all the cuddles in the world, it is Bucky. He was a decent man, someone who looked out for Steve even though Steve was small and weak and certainly often ill while they were children. Someone who went through war and torture only to go back into said war in order to back up Steve. Who seemingly died while protecting Steve and then spend the next 70 years getting tortured and forced to kill people against his will. And now he has to live with those memories while the world is out to get to him. Honestly, when Tony attacked Bucky, it was for me like he just started to kick a bunch of puppies...that I am still not angry with Tony and understand why he did it shows the strength of the writing.
I actually like Tony in Civil War the best so far...he has been maturing. He still makes mistake, because that is kind of his MO, but they are no longer selfish mistakes. He is also not quite as careless as he used to be.
edited 30th Oct '16 9:39:54 AM by Swanpride
This is true.
I don't really think Tony is a woobie. I do think that it's easier to hate him then anyone else because of all the things he's done, and the fact that it's really easy to misunderstand his intentions due to his past actions.
This is why his attempts to fix his mistakes (alongside his own issues) near constantly go wrong. He does a poor job of explaining himself, has a lot of issues in his closet, and is just a really punchable dude even on his best days.
This is why I say he has to work the hardest to earn back trust: It's really easy to dislike and distrust Tony, and I think he's just the kind of guy who brings out the worst in people (making them take cheap shots and not feel bad, or just think the worst of him in general).
Is it fair? No, but that's how it is.
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You're still framing it as if this is Steve's call to make. It's not - It's Bucky's. And so far it looks like of the two people who tried to kill him in CW, he trusts T'Challa over Tony. Which also makes sense on a meta-level, since if the old Avengers really get faded out, it's likelier that Bucky will interact with T'Challa, so it makes more sense to develop a relationship between them than between Bucky and Tony. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't have any resolution, but maybe it shouldn't be all about Tony's character development.
I feel that I get angry at Tony because I care about him as a character. I think Natasha had it right: his ego always gets in the way, and so he can't just deal with his grief over his parents and his anger at Howard and jealousy over Steve, and his PTSD and guilt like an average person, no, it has to be a whole room of MIT students who discover after twenty years he still hasn't worked much on forgiving himself or his Dad for their shitty relationship, and instead of accepting that he shouldn't be in control over something like the Avengers and maybe stepping down for good, he tries to foster outside control on them and ends up playing into the hands of someone like Ross (Secretary edition) for far too long.
edited 30th Oct '16 9:57:21 AM by hollygoolightly
That isn't the same situation at all! T'Challa wanted to kill Bucky for something Bucky didn't do. By allowing him to help Bucky gives him the chance to do a little bit atoning of his own (and if there is a character who understands the need for atonement, it is most likely Bucky).
Yes, in the end, this will be Bucky's decision (god knows he should never be prevented from making his own choices ever again). But do you think that Steve would allow anyone to get even close to Bucky he perceives as a threat?
Regarding Wanda, as I've said before and will say again, a throwaway line about how the ICC remanded her to the Avengers' custody to serve out her sentence would have done wonders for both her character and for pre-establishing a connection between the Avengers and the U.N. before that connection becomes important in Civil War.
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This is moving way beyond the confines of this thread, but the idea that Steve "allows" anyone to do anything in regards to Bucky to me always sounds like Bucky is his lapdog, so I very much hope he'll keep his more co-dependent instincts in check. Yikes. It's these kinds of things that make Stucky as a romantic relationship so creepy to me.
For me, it's not just "Tony's at fault" or "Wanda's at fault" or "Steve's at fault", it's that the writers either don't recognize it or don't care:
Tony built Ultron using tech he barely understood, that Loki brought here to Earth, and Hydra experimented with. The only way it could be more suspect/evil is if Red Skull stuck it in his mouth for a few seconds and then gave it back. But the writers and civilian characters treat Sokovia as "The Avengers were too focused on Ultron and innocent people died in the crossfire."
Wanda helped an evil robot with his plans, not bothering to make sure he wasn't going to destroy the world. She also ended up sending the Hulk on a rampage through a crowded city. To top it off, she may not have full control over her powers (containing a bomb looks pretty difficult, and it could have been worse). And there's her sad little "I understand. They fear me for my powers." Which is only half-true. They should fear Wanda for the whole super-villainy phase too.
Steve knows all this, and he kept the creation of Ultron a secret from the world, because releasing SHIELD/Hydra information to the masses is very different from releasing Avengers information. When he says that it's better for the Avengers to stay separate from the authorities because "the best hands are our own," he's a goddamn liar. The only difference between the government conspiracies and the Avenger conspiracies is that Avengers get away with keeping the Ultron connection secret. Then there's the incident in Lagos, where Steve makes several bad calls, but he refuses any kind of oversight, even though there really should be someone screaming at Captain Rogers for screwing up so badly.
Im going to leave my opinion fast before the subject change again:
" "Tony is such a poor whoobie and everyone is soooooo unfair to him""
nice strawman there, what people are discussing is not the fact Tony isnt fault for anything but that the movie treat him at just HIM being a fault for everything, as people said Bruce was there in the creation of Ultron and Vision and was talk TWICE by Tony, making look like henchment or a doormact and there is Wanda messing with Tony mind, a scene that is never talk again even when er is part of the team.
" I'm sure this has nothing to do with the fact that Wanda is a woman, because fandom always treats female characters fairly. Especially compared to a sexy-snarky anti hero type like Tony. (Whom I actually do like, in contrast to most of his fans. No offense, Tobias.)"
If something, Not speaking of South africa is a blow against her as it feel the writer cant give her the responsability of her own mistakes, instead they treat her like child.
"t the events of Avengers and Thor: The Dark World aren't relevant to the Accords either as things would have gone bad without the Avengers in those cases."
Actually there is another reason the events of Johannesburg and Dark world are never mention: it kinda harm the narrative against Steve waaaaaay to much, in Ao U you have two avenger fighting in huge city that probably kill some people(is hard to said) and them they leave without saying more, only to take into their team the resposable for that in the first place?
Or Thor who goes, fight, and leave without saying a damn thing, AND before you go and said "but thing would being worst without him!" is not the damn point, is that all that just happen and nobody KNOW a damn thing, they dont have acountability for anyone.....and that is throw away for Zemo starring the episode of cheaters
Anyway, about doctor strange....meh, I cant care about it but I will probably see it anyways
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Doctor Strange did really well in the countries it was released this week.
Also, Agents of Shield delivered another great episode this week and it looks like we will get to see the origin of the Ghost rider next episode....sadly the ratings point that this will be yet another Marvel show cancelled before its time because the American Audience apparently has no taste for intricate story-telling.
And I am still deliberating with myself if I want awake Bucky in Black Panther or not...I mean, I can never get enough of Bucky, the Black Panther movie shouldn't lose focus....
I feel like season 3 lost AOS a lot of viewers, and adding Ghost Rider to the mix isn't the kind of thing that sounds like a good fit on the face of it. I mean, I think they're pulling it off and this has been one of their better seasons, but it sounds gimmicky and desperate. Intricate storytelling can't pull in any viewers if they don't tune in in the first place to realize it's there.
Looking at the popularity of House of Cards, Breaking Bad, and Game of Thrones in recent years, intricacy is hot right now.
edited 30th Oct '16 1:10:42 PM by Unsung

Using that logic Tony and Bruce should be in jail for all the shit they're responsible for. No prison would hold Wanda anyway. The best option is making her an Avenger. It allows them to keep an eye on her and she can use her powers to do good in the world.