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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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BARF was only used instead of a conventional flashback because RDJ suggested Tony would build a gadget to help him with therapy. It's basically a glorified roleplaying scenario - the memory gets recorded, and then the patient can change what they should have done differently in the recording. That means the memory doesn't get changed, so it can't help Bucky, who probably needs a hypnotist and/or a surgeon to do the job (paging Dr. Strange, I presume).
No recordings, but unless Zemo ditched the red book - which admittedly the man is clever enough to have done - Not-CTU should have that one, and thus the trigger codes.
Honestly, I was surprised he even used that book instead of just memorizing the words...but I guess there might be more information in it which might be useful (plus, visual aid for the audience).
I don't think that the writers had Bucky's healing in mind when they created Barf, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it will play a role later on...after all Tony having the key to Bucky's healing is too good of a dramatic set-up to not use it. If Barf exist in order to "rephrase" memories, so to speak, it might be able to disconnect Bucky's memories from the trigger phrases. And perhaps it can be used to find the other triggers.
I thought it was because he didn't speak Russian, so the visual reminder probably helped. Also, it creates dread (which is likely why HYDRA used it - look, soldier, it's your leash!).
Yeah, they could, but why would they, when they have the shield, which Tony will likely give back to either Steve or Bucky? (I normally would have thought they would have Tony get him a new arm, but a) that's a little late, and b) I think that is going to be T'Challa.)
edited 30th Oct '16 7:38:38 AM by hollygoolightly
It seems more appropriate, because he'd trust him with something Howard made that is at the same time very symbolic for the whole bloody mess. As for the rest - this might sound bad, because Tony tried to kill Bucky, but I think the whole forgiving thing, etc, is actually something between Tony and Steve. And Tony shouldn't get to buy Bucky's goodwill back, I think. I find it difficult to explain? It gives him too much power if he gets to cure Bucky. That should perhaps be someone more neutral.
It's not about getting Bucky's goodwill back. It is about the beauty of Tony overcoming himself and doing something for the weapon which killed his father. It would be such a great gesture of forgiveness, way more meaningful than Tony just stopping to kill Bucky. And if would go a long way to mend things between him and Cap, because at the end of the day there is nothing in the world which means as much to Steve as Bucky now that Peggy died.
edited 30th Oct '16 8:04:36 AM by Swanpride
Agreed.
Now regaining the trust of everyone else will be harder, but at least this will let him come to terms with his father issues.
One Strip! One Strip!Well you'd have to believe that HE needs to earn THEIR forgiveness/regain their trust. I don't personally. He did nothing that warrants "re-earning trust." If anything, Steve should have to re-earn Tony's trust.
But then again Marvel just loves playing the "everything is Tony's fault, even when it blatantly isn't" care, both in the comics and in the films. Heck they completely ignore Banner's role in creating Ultron, and they don't mention the whole "Wanda helped Ultron even when he was killing people because of a personal grudge" thing ONCE in CW. No instead she's played up as the "poor innocent victim whom everyone is picking on." It was rather annoying I thought honestly.
Maybe, but that's how they're going with things.
I think Tony is just one of those people who you can easily take shots at. His guilt complex means you can say what you want about him even if you are only half right. His arrogance means people want to take him down, even though his life isn't that great (he's been betrayed quite a bit actually).
People see the cocky rich playboy that he pretends to be, and they want to cut his legs out from under him, not getting that he's not all he cracked up to be at all.
One Strip! One Strip!She's not portrayed as innocent, she's portrayed as insecure. There's a different.
edited 30th Oct '16 8:51:09 AM by alliterator
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Banner very clearly didn't want to do it was egged into by Tony. Tony ironically even reiterates during the party scene that Bruce has a problem standing up for himself and becomes subservient the minute someone else gets aggressive, which in hindsight is even more dickish.
I've said before that Wanda's Karma Houdini-ness in AOU bothered me, but let's not pretend Tony is some precious woobie who did nothing wrong in this situation.
Not, necessarily, no. Plus the Russos said barring explicit mentions of aversions, the MCU movies happen in real time.
Both Tony and Wanda have made their mistakes and had a hand in Ultron.
I do think that between the two of them, Tony is gonna have the harder time cleaning things up. He's got so many issues and skeletons in his closet (a few he might not even know about) that he might never be able to fix his mistakes, because a new one will appear later on.
One Strip! One Strip!
+ 7. That could be done just as effectively by Tony giving Bucky the shield, if they want to go down that road. I certainly don't think he should get to use Bucky to re-gain anything with Steve. That's just emotionally manipulative. If he has Howard-related issues with Steve, or Steve-related issues with Steve he needs to resolve them with Steve, not by using anybody else as leverage.
As for forgiving Bucky, I think for now it's enough that he tried to kill him. If and when they ever get beyond that, is a different question, but I think the situation is messed up enough that it shouldn't be something that puts Bucky in Tony's debt.
edited 30th Oct '16 9:03:27 AM by hollygoolightly
Tony didn't put a gun to Bruce's head and force him to do it. There was no reason he couldn't have done more to stop Tony or tell the others if he had problems with the idea.
They're idea of "atonement" is to act as if she has nothing to atone for. Her actions in Johannesburg are never brought up and any comeuppance she gets is played more for her own personal drama.
It's funny because I'm one of the people who defended the comic version of the Scarlet Witch though that was more due to how I hated seeing a character with a history prior to Bendid get screwed over by bad writing but the movie version has no excuse.
x 5 The problem is clearly a meta one, though. Ao U happens what, 1 - 2 years before Civil War? That means Johannisburg would have been addressed long before Lagos ever happened. The problem really lies with the way Wanda was induced into the Avengers - the conversation should have happened then and there. I actually do agree with alliterator that her reactions in CW make clear that she has learned from her past, regrets it, and is trying to make amends by working with the Avengers - that isn't negated by her also accepting them as a substitute family.
edited 30th Oct '16 9:12:42 AM by hollygoolightly
I mean, complaining that Wanda's actions are played for personal drama is kind of weird when all of Tony's storylines are played for personal drama, too. Because this is a dramatic movie.
edited 30th Oct '16 9:13:02 AM by alliterator
Ironically, a lot of fans try to tear down Wanda in order to somehow build up Tony or complain about how Tony isn't "treated fairly." But Wanda has been in two movies (in which she wasn't the lead) and Tony has been in a lot more (and was pretty much a lead character in five to six films), therefore there has been a lot more storylines around Tony and a lot more of his character has been explored.
edited 30th Oct '16 9:21:44 AM by alliterator
I'm sure this has nothing to do with the fact that Wanda is a woman, because fandom always treats female characters fairly. Especially compared to a sexy-snarky anti hero type like Tony. (Whom I actually do like, in contrast to most of his fans. No offense, Tobias.)
ETA: Speaking of fairness, I should mention that I found Wanda's writing in Ao U a bit ... uneven. But that fits my general impression of Ao U.
edited 30th Oct '16 9:26:48 AM by hollygoolightly
You cannot claim she is clearly trying to atone for something when they don't even mention what she wants to atone for. The writers know good and well how this makes her look and that is why they ignored it completely and invented an entirely new tragedy that she couldn't be entirely blamed for for the sake of the film.
Yes, they do. Wanda may not have been an Avenger during the Johannesburg incedent but she is one now and the Avengers have chosen to shield her from legal consequences based on nepotism. This is clearly a sign these guys are not good at governing themselves as they're tendency to get emotionally compromised get them to make terrible decisions.
And note that the events of Avengers and Thor: The Dark World aren't relevant to the Accords either as things would have gone bad without the Avengers in those cases.
Tony's gotten flak for that too.
edited 30th Oct '16 9:29:56 AM by windleopard

Cameras don't work that well when the electricity is down. Thankfully.