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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64376: Oct 30th 2016 at 5:13:48 AM

Cameras don't work that well when the electricity is down. Thankfully.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64377: Oct 30th 2016 at 7:17:39 AM

[up][up] BARF was only used instead of a conventional flashback because RDJ suggested Tony would build a gadget to help him with therapy. It's basically a glorified roleplaying scenario - the memory gets recorded, and then the patient can change what they should have done differently in the recording. That means the memory doesn't get changed, so it can't help Bucky, who probably needs a hypnotist and/or a surgeon to do the job (paging Dr. Strange, I presume).

[up] No recordings, but unless Zemo ditched the red book - which admittedly the man is clever enough to have done - Not-CTU should have that one, and thus the trigger codes.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64378: Oct 30th 2016 at 7:34:04 AM

[up] Honestly, I was surprised he even used that book instead of just memorizing the words...but I guess there might be more information in it which might be useful (plus, visual aid for the audience).

I don't think that the writers had Bucky's healing in mind when they created Barf, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it will play a role later on...after all Tony having the key to Bucky's healing is too good of a dramatic set-up to not use it. If Barf exist in order to "rephrase" memories, so to speak, it might be able to disconnect Bucky's memories from the trigger phrases. And perhaps it can be used to find the other triggers.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64379: Oct 30th 2016 at 7:37:06 AM

[up] I thought it was because he didn't speak Russian, so the visual reminder probably helped. Also, it creates dread (which is likely why HYDRA used it - look, soldier, it's your leash!).

Yeah, they could, but why would they, when they have the shield, which Tony will likely give back to either Steve or Bucky? (I normally would have thought they would have Tony get him a new arm, but a) that's a little late, and b) I think that is going to be T'Challa.)

edited 30th Oct '16 7:38:38 AM by hollygoolightly

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64381: Oct 30th 2016 at 7:44:29 AM

[up] It seems more appropriate, because he'd trust him with something Howard made that is at the same time very symbolic for the whole bloody mess. As for the rest - this might sound bad, because Tony tried to kill Bucky, but I think the whole forgiving thing, etc, is actually something between Tony and Steve. And Tony shouldn't get to buy Bucky's goodwill back, I think. I find it difficult to explain? It gives him too much power if he gets to cure Bucky. That should perhaps be someone more neutral.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64382: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:03:21 AM

[up] It's not about getting Bucky's goodwill back. It is about the beauty of Tony overcoming himself and doing something for the weapon which killed his father. It would be such a great gesture of forgiveness, way more meaningful than Tony just stopping to kill Bucky. And if would go a long way to mend things between him and Cap, because at the end of the day there is nothing in the world which means as much to Steve as Bucky now that Peggy died.

edited 30th Oct '16 8:04:36 AM by Swanpride

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64383: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:21:35 AM

Agreed.

Now regaining the trust of everyone else will be harder, but at least this will let him come to terms with his father issues.

One Strip! One Strip!
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#64384: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:44:05 AM

Well you'd have to believe that HE needs to earn THEIR forgiveness/regain their trust. I don't personally. He did nothing that warrants "re-earning trust." If anything, Steve should have to re-earn Tony's trust.

But then again Marvel just loves playing the "everything is Tony's fault, even when it blatantly isn't" care, both in the comics and in the films. Heck they completely ignore Banner's role in creating Ultron, and they don't mention the whole "Wanda helped Ultron even when he was killing people because of a personal grudge" thing ONCE in CW. No instead she's played up as the "poor innocent victim whom everyone is picking on." It was rather annoying I thought honestly.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64385: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:48:49 AM

Maybe, but that's how they're going with things.

I think Tony is just one of those people who you can easily take shots at. His guilt complex means you can say what you want about him even if you are only half right. His arrogance means people want to take him down, even though his life isn't that great (he's been betrayed quite a bit actually).

People see the cocky rich playboy that he pretends to be, and they want to cut his legs out from under him, not getting that he's not all he cracked up to be at all.

One Strip! One Strip!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64386: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:49:51 AM

He did nothing that warrants "re-earning trust."
He tried to kill Bucky purely for personal reasons.

Heck they completely ignore Banner's role in creating Ultron, and they don't mention the whole "Wanda helped Ultron even when he was killing people because of a personal grudge" thing ONCE in CW.
Bruce was only working on Ultron because Tony talked him into it. Tony was the lead in that project.

No instead she's played up as the "poor innocent victim whom everyone is picking on."
Uh, no, no she isn't. She is quite clearly being portrayed as The Atoner who is trying to do right. And who "picks on" her? Tony? I really doubt "house arrest" falls under that category. Nor is she ever called an "innocent victim," especially since she is able to do things like beat the Vision.

She's not portrayed as innocent, she's portrayed as insecure. There's a different.

edited 30th Oct '16 8:51:09 AM by alliterator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64387: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:53:56 AM

[up][up][up]Banner very clearly didn't want to do it was egged into by Tony. Tony ironically even reiterates during the party scene that Bruce has a problem standing up for himself and becomes subservient the minute someone else gets aggressive, which in hindsight is even more dickish.

I've said before that Wanda's Karma Houdini-ness in AOU bothered me, but let's not pretend Tony is some precious woobie who did nothing wrong in this situation.

I wonder, what year will be set the plot of Thor Ragnarok? Assuming that Thor Ragnarok is an Immediate Sequel to Age of Ultron, by logic should be in 2015, but I'm not sure.

Not, necessarily, no. Plus the Russos said barring explicit mentions of aversions, the MCU movies happen in real time.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64388: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:56:32 AM

Both Tony and Wanda have made their mistakes and had a hand in Ultron.

I do think that between the two of them, Tony is gonna have the harder time cleaning things up. He's got so many issues and skeletons in his closet (a few he might not even know about) that he might never be able to fix his mistakes, because a new one will appear later on.

One Strip! One Strip!
hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64389: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:02:19 AM

[up] + 7. That could be done just as effectively by Tony giving Bucky the shield, if they want to go down that road. I certainly don't think he should get to use Bucky to re-gain anything with Steve. That's just emotionally manipulative. If he has Howard-related issues with Steve, or Steve-related issues with Steve he needs to resolve them with Steve, not by using anybody else as leverage.

As for forgiving Bucky, I think for now it's enough that he tried to kill him. If and when they ever get beyond that, is a different question, but I think the situation is messed up enough that it shouldn't be something that puts Bucky in Tony's debt.

edited 30th Oct '16 9:03:27 AM by hollygoolightly

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#64390: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:05:19 AM

Bruce was only working on Ultron because Tony talked him into it. Tony was the lead in that project.

Tony didn't put a gun to Bruce's head and force him to do it. There was no reason he couldn't have done more to stop Tony or tell the others if he had problems with the idea.

Uh, no, no she isn't. She is quite clearly being portrayed as The Atoner who is trying to do right. And who "picks on" her? Tony? I really doubt "house arrest" falls under that category. Nor is she ever called an "innocent victim," especially since she is able to do things like beat the Vision. She's not portrayed as innocent, she's portrayed as insecure. There's a different.

They're idea of "atonement" is to act as if she has nothing to atone for. Her actions in Johannesburg are never brought up and any comeuppance she gets is played more for her own personal drama.

It's funny because I'm one of the people who defended the comic version of the Scarlet Witch though that was more due to how I hated seeing a character with a history prior to Bendid get screwed over by bad writing but the movie version has no excuse.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#64391: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:07:02 AM

Oh great, more Wanda discourse. I swear, she's becoming the Vriska of the MCU.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64393: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:10:28 AM

What the fuck is a Vriska (Homestuck, I know.)

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#64394: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:11:20 AM

I'm not a filthy Homestuck, so I wouldn't know. tongue

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64395: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:12:03 AM

[up] x 5 The problem is clearly a meta one, though. Ao U happens what, 1 - 2 years before Civil War? That means Johannisburg would have been addressed long before Lagos ever happened. The problem really lies with the way Wanda was induced into the Avengers - the conversation should have happened then and there. I actually do agree with alliterator that her reactions in CW make clear that she has learned from her past, regrets it, and is trying to make amends by working with the Avengers - that isn't negated by her also accepting them as a substitute family.

edited 30th Oct '16 9:12:42 AM by hollygoolightly

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64396: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:12:15 AM

Tony didn't put a gun to Bruce's head and force him to do it.
I didn't say Tony forced him, I said Tony talked him into it. Again: Tony was the lead on the project. It was Tony's idea.

They're idea of "atonement" is to act as if she has nothing to atone for.
Just because they don't bring up what happened in the last movie doesn't mean she isn't trying to atone. She very clearly is. You can try to atone for past mistakes while not bringing up those mistakes. In fact, bringing up those mistakes would have been awkward and forced exposition.

Her actions in Johannesburg are never brought up and any comeuppance she gets is played more for her own personal drama.
Why would they be brought up? They have no relevance for the Sokovia Accords — which are supposed to govern the Avengers. She wasn't an Avenger or even a superhero back then. And yes, it is played for personal drama — like everything else.

I mean, complaining that Wanda's actions are played for personal drama is kind of weird when all of Tony's storylines are played for personal drama, too. Because this is a dramatic movie.

edited 30th Oct '16 9:13:02 AM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#64397: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:12:36 AM

She's a really divisive character.

Like, you know how in a lot of discussion threads there's just this one character that, when you discuss them, it leads to a lot of back and forth that never ends? In Homestuck, we have Vriska. In the MCU, we have Wanda.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64398: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:20:54 AM

Ironically, a lot of fans try to tear down Wanda in order to somehow build up Tony or complain about how Tony isn't "treated fairly." But Wanda has been in two movies (in which she wasn't the lead) and Tony has been in a lot more (and was pretty much a lead character in five to six films), therefore there has been a lot more storylines around Tony and a lot more of his character has been explored.

edited 30th Oct '16 9:21:44 AM by alliterator

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#64399: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:25:24 AM

[up] I'm sure this has nothing to do with the fact that Wanda is a woman, because fandom always treats female characters fairly. Especially compared to a sexy-snarky anti hero type like Tony. (Whom I actually do like, in contrast to most of his fans. No offense, Tobias.)

ETA: Speaking of fairness, I should mention that I found Wanda's writing in Ao U a bit ... uneven. But that fits my general impression of Ao U.

edited 30th Oct '16 9:26:48 AM by hollygoolightly

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#64400: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:25:37 AM

Just because they don't bring up what happened in the last movie doesn't mean she isn't trying to atone. She very clearly is.

You cannot claim she is clearly trying to atone for something when they don't even mention what she wants to atone for. The writers know good and well how this makes her look and that is why they ignored it completely and invented an entirely new tragedy that she couldn't be entirely blamed for for the sake of the film.

Why would they be brought up? They have no relevance for the Sokovia Accords

Yes, they do. Wanda may not have been an Avenger during the Johannesburg incedent but she is one now and the Avengers have chosen to shield her from legal consequences based on nepotism. This is clearly a sign these guys are not good at governing themselves as they're tendency to get emotionally compromised get them to make terrible decisions.

And note that the events of Avengers and Thor: The Dark World aren't relevant to the Accords either as things would have gone bad without the Avengers in those cases.

I mean, complaining that Wanda's actions are played for personal drama is kind of weird when all of Tony's storylines are played for personal drama, too.

Tony's gotten flak for that too.

edited 30th Oct '16 9:29:56 AM by windleopard


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