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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64226: Oct 24th 2016 at 5:33:18 PM

Mjolnir belongs with its true love: the coat hook.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#64227: Oct 24th 2016 at 6:35:54 PM

That is nice and dandy but Mjoljir true love is the elevator, anything else is a lie[lol]

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
ComicFan Since: Sep, 2016
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64229: Oct 24th 2016 at 9:31:27 PM

I always hate it when people claim that Marvel doesn't take risks, because Marvel took so many risks to even got where it is now. First financially. In order to get the money to start its own studio, Marvel had to put the movie rights to every single character they still owned at this time as safety. And then the Ironman rights reverted back and, realizing the Ironman would be kind of a perfect start due to him not having an adaptation before (like Cap and Hulk had) while being not quite as goody as Thor, they had to come up with additional money to cover that movie, because he wasn't part of the original deal. So in order to get the universe of the ground, they had to put everything on the line. They are now better off with Disney as their parent company, but this could have ended very differently.

Then in terms of the characters they pick. Let's be honest here, every single other studio would have put itself on the back after the Avengers and then continued to make movies about the same set of characters. But not Marvel. They did Guardians of the Galaxy instead. Ant-man, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, other studios wouldn't even touch properties like this, and if they did, it would be some kind of low budget production.

Then in terms of the people they choose. RDJ, Joss Whedon, The Russo Brothers, Chris Pratt, how often have we sit here and said "this guy? Oh...okaaaaay........." only to be blown away by what we got?

And finally the story they tell. Making Thor a Shakespearian Drama and The First Avengers a commentary on war propaganda. Even doing the Avengers, when everyone else was not expecting it to work to have so many characters in one movie. Ironman 3 might be controversial, but it is also a very ballsy movie in more than one regard. The Winter Soldier ended up reshaping the MCU while commenting on a very current topic. Age of Ultron is a very flawed movie, but it is also one which has a lot to say. And Civil war goes more or less against everything we are used to in terms of superhero movies (or TV shows for that matter). The heroes at no point really fight the villain, they keep fighting each other. The big battle doesn't happen at the end of the movie, but in the middle while the last one is a very personal man-to-man-to-man battle. And all this while the movie examines some of the trappings of the genre itself.

I think that it is just ignorant to claim that Marvel takes no risks, because the MCU is one big risk. They were the first to do what other studios thought impossible to work, and they have continued to come up with new ideas to keep their universe fresh.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64230: Oct 24th 2016 at 10:43:28 PM

[up] Let's also remember that Marvel had also just become solvent again after they declared bankruptcy in the '90s. It was because of the bankruptcy that they had to sell off the rights to their most popular characters...but then as soon as they became solvent again, they decided that instead of partnering with an existing studio (which would have been much easier and cheaper), that instead, they would create their own movie studio.

Think about that: a comic book company just out of bankruptcy created their own movie studio. And had a massive hit with their first movie.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#64231: Oct 24th 2016 at 11:45:35 PM

Just because it required big risks to start up in the first place, doesn't mean that their current approach to filmmaking isn't overly safe, now that they have enough capital to mix up the format.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64232: Oct 25th 2016 at 2:01:55 AM

[up] I don't see any other studio doing something as mind-bending as Doctor Strange currently. I don't see any other studio doing a big block-buster movie in which nearly the whole cast and most of the people behind the scenes are Po C. I don't see anyone else preparing a movie with an insane number of characters in it. I don't see any other studio putting a comic event on screen which will impact multiple movies and TV shows. I don't see any other studios working on a second Star Wars.

edited 25th Oct '16 2:03:35 AM by Swanpride

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#64233: Oct 25th 2016 at 2:26:51 AM

Maybe not all of them come from the same company, but lots of smaller studios have done each of them and succeeded. What you're describing sounds like an Overly Narrow Superlative, of course Marvel Studios is going to look good that way. And I get you love Marvel Studios, I enjoy their films too, but that doesn't make them exceptional or flawless.

That doesn't mean you gotta go the other way and be a bitter contrarian who tears into them harder because they're so successful, but you definitely don't have to whiteknight them either.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#64234: Oct 25th 2016 at 2:38:25 AM

And I get you love Marvel Studios, I enjoy their films too, but that doesn't make them exceptional or flawless.
I don't think anyone is saying that they are flawless; they are just saying that "The MCU never takes risks" is an incorrect statement.

I will say that the MCU doesn't really take much risks narrativelyCivil War is the first MCU film in a while to avoid that whole "third act invasion" trope, although Ant-Man did parody it for a bit. No, the risks the MCU takes are always in terms of character, choosing one character over another or going with a lesser known character over a more well known character.

Take the DCEU for example: DC has pretty much always relied on the fact that Superman and Batman are super well known. So even the movies that don't feature Batman as a main character still, somehow, feature him, like Suicide Squad. This isn't bad — connecting the films together narratively makes the universe actually seem like a universe, putting Batman as the DCEU's Nick Fury is a good idea, considering Ben Affleck's charisma — but it also falls back on "Everyone knows Batman and Batman is super popular." It would be like if the MCU included Tony Stark in every single movie after Iron Man — and, to be fair, he did make an appearance in Incredible Hulk, but that was the only other appearance outside of his own movies until The Avengers. The rest of the connections were made by Nick Fury and Agent Coulson.

edited 25th Oct '16 2:38:46 AM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64235: Oct 25th 2016 at 5:15:08 AM

I hate to bring the DCEU movies into it because discussions like this have already shut down two threats....but let's examine Superhero movies in general: How many are there which don't follow the basic plot of hero gets (or has) power, rescues girlfriend and defeats the villain (to which he has some personal relationship) in some big third act? The MCU movies are at least unusual in that they tend to skip the "rescues girlfriend" part or at least subvert it somehow.

The Dark Knight sidesteps this basic plot by not rescuing the girlfriend and having the hero kind of loose in the third act. Ironman does it by having the girl-friend rescuing the hero in the third act. The First Avenger does it by having the hero symbolically dying in the third act (it is not permanent, but for Peggy it could have been). Ant-man does it by having the final act in the bedroom of a child. Got G does it by having a villain who couldn't care less for what the heroes does and who doesn't even really sees them as a threat. And The Winter Soldier and Civil War both run in circles around this very basic formula (which is part of the reason why they are a class of its own).

Well, and then there are the X-men movies, but they have their very specific X-men plot they repeat in every single X-men movie (honestly, how often will Professor X and Magneto work together just so that Magneto can betray him in the end).

But otherwise what people call the "Marvel formula" is actually the basic action movie plot which has been used for decades and Marvel actually tries to shake it up more than others do.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#64236: Oct 25th 2016 at 5:48:17 AM

Being formulaic doesn't stop a film from realising its tone, characters and conflict well.

And I get the feeling Marvel is more about experimenting with their sequels than their first movies at this point, because if your introduction to a character is solid, you can take risks with their sequels and still have a core audience, but if you mess up the first entry, then that entire franchise doesn't happen.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#64237: Oct 25th 2016 at 5:49:50 AM

putting Batman as the DCEU's Nick Fury is a good idea, considering Ben Affleck's charisma — but it also falls back on "Everyone knows Batman and Batman is super popular."
They can always go with Maxwell Lord or, in a more daring approach, Captain Atom.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#64238: Oct 25th 2016 at 7:35:42 AM

I will say that the MCU doesn't really take much risks narratively

That's what most people are talking about when they say Marvel movies are "safe". About the most ambitious film they've done in that regard is Winter Soldier, which was brave enough to partly invalidate Steve's sacrifice (adding another layer of tragedy to his character) and cast the entirety of SHIELD in a very dark light.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#64239: Oct 25th 2016 at 7:41:08 AM

Civil War is also fairly ambitious in a manner because it has a rather bleak end as far as superhero films go. Stark and Steve hate each other, the accords are passed, our heroes are now fugitives.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#64240: Oct 25th 2016 at 7:52:52 AM

[up]Steven dosent hate Tony and is uncertein how much Tony feel about him consider the note and phone and consider he rescute everyone in the Raff dosent really make things that bleak

"). Ant-man does it by having the final act in the bedroom of a child. Got G does it by having a villain who couldn't care less for what the heroes does and who doesn't even really sees them as a threat"

that dosent change much, is still the typical "good fight with joke in the middle of it and the hero winning being cleaver"

"Age of Ultron is a very flawed movie, but it is also one which has a lot to say."

yeah, and that is "whedon, you copy your own movie!"

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64241: Oct 25th 2016 at 7:55:24 AM

The riskless thing is like I said, a side effect of the fact that Marvel simply puts so many films out a year. For any studio, when you put out a dozen or so movies in the same genre, they are inevitably going to seem similar to one another, and this is more pronounced by the fact that so many of the movies are origin stories, which by definition tend to follow very similar arcs usually.

Though funny enough, Indiewire gave Strange a fairly positive review and argued that this late in the game, bitching about origin stories in superhero movies is akin to bitching about foreign movies having subtitles.

Another criticism of course (that I think Helen Mirren of all people also supported) is that the Contractual Immortality nature of the franchise means that it's very hard to give stakes to anything happening, though that's an argument I have more mixed feelings on.

edited 25th Oct '16 8:03:25 AM by comicwriter

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64242: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:02:33 AM

[up][up][up]One other thing I think Civil War did well is it subverted the team movie third act that you often see in Marvel movies (and team based superhero flicks as a whole). The biggest set piece comes much earlier in the movie and the final battle is a more personal conflict between a small number of characters, not unlike The Empire Strikes Back.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64243: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:09:47 AM

Never understood what is so bad about origin stories...if they are good, why not tell them? And the story about an arrogant doctor who looses everything he has and then finds something new sounds indeed interesting.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#64244: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:11:43 AM

Because once you've seen so many superhero films it's hard to make them seem unique or distinctive.

Even with Strange, the positive reviews keep mentioning how close his origin adheres to Iron Man 1.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64245: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:13:57 AM

[up] Without seeing the movie, I would argue against it...mainly because Tony has a forced epiphany and once he is out of the cave, he can more or less do what he wants. Doctor Strange on the other hand first looses everything and then goes searching for answers. That isn't the same kind of story at all.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#64246: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:22:24 AM

I'm okay with origin stories still being done. These are characters that don't quite have the same public awareness as Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man.

Plus, Dr Strange, Iron Man and Cap's origin stories play a huge part in their characterization.

I'd be okay without seeing Black Panther's origin because his origin is that he was born the heir to a kingdom. Spider-Man Homecoming will skip the origin or touch on it very briefly because hey we've seen Spidey's origin twice already in the movies.

Its situational, basically.

edited 25th Oct '16 8:22:37 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#64247: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:29:27 AM

[up][up]is still another "somewhat cocky person have to learn the error of his way" they used in Iron man, Thor, somewhat in Antman and now Dcotor strange, it get annoying after a while

But as [up] said, is situational, people want to see the origin story of Black panther, including me

edited 25th Oct '16 8:30:00 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#64248: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:39:07 AM

I want one or two flashback, perhaps, but not a whole movie about Black Panthers origin...it's not THAT complicated. And seeing what he will do now as a king is way more interesting.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#64249: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:51:32 AM

[up]I say they should do a flashback to a previous Black Panther. Most likely the one who helped defend Wakanda during the scramble for Africa.

Maybe set up the timeline so he becomes the Black Panther on the same day as (and perhaps specifically because of) the battle that pernamently ended any colonization plans for Wakanda. That way the flashback could walk the viewer through what it means for someone to be the Black Panther and what sets Wakanda apart from the rest of the world.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#64250: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:55:29 AM

I admit I want someone to used T´challa action in civil war agianst him, I mean he act very foolish in that movie(including chaising someone else in another country), someone could see that and said "he is not fit to rule....maybe Im...."

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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