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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63601: Oct 13th 2016 at 1:44:56 PM

Well, I've just got back from reading part of an interview with Kismet/Ayesha's actor about her role in GOTG 2. wild mass guess And I now suspect more than ever she may end up as MCU's official Adam Warlock.

From interview:

“Ayesha is this leader of the Sovereign people,” explained Debicki. “She enlists the Guardians to help her fight a sort of galactical beast. They’re this sort of ragtag bunch of people but they happen to be very good at getting rid of things and cleaning up the universe, in a way. So she enlists them and it’s all going swimmingly until it all turns very very sour. Let’s just say it goes from amiable to not-so-amiable quite quickly.”

“The wonderful thing about James and the writing in the film is that every character has a really great arc,” she said. “And that’s why I really wanted to play her because she finishes in a very different place than where we first see her. She shifts a lot. How she looks kind of shifts, and I don’t want to give anything away.”

wild mass guess Also I'm kind of betting that Magus may end up being a Composite Character of the popular version and the techno-organic villain going by the same name. Either that or Ultron gets "reincarnated" into him ("From this rock, I shall build my church)

edited 13th Oct '16 2:17:24 PM by nervmeister

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#63602: Oct 13th 2016 at 3:16:13 PM

Some info on the Dr. Strange sneak peek.

We had a science advisor on the movie. This guy named Adam Frank, he’s one of the science spokesmen for NPR. A personal friend of mine, a really amazing guy, and there was talk about rooting some of the ideas in science, and I ended up really moving away from that because I think magic should be magic. And they did that in ‘Thor.’ There was a lot of rooting the fantastical elements of Asgard in ‘Thor’ in the scientific, and I liked that. But magic is another thing. What makes magic feel magical is the mystery. So, I think there is something about the Doctor Strange comics and I think is true about the movie is that it is rooted in mysticism and possibilities that science is pointing out to us like the multiverse, but it transcends religion and science. It’s its own thing. It’s its own unique, multi-dimensional, mystical realm, and that makes the magic feel magical. It makes the real world feel magical when you’re watching sorcerers walk around New York City. It’s great. I think there is certainly a respect for science, but magic is the magic in ‘Doctor Strange.'

They're really doubling down on the whole "magic is magic" thing.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63603: Oct 13th 2016 at 3:41:04 PM

[up]But I thought there was going to be a strong quantum physics approach to it all.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#63604: Oct 13th 2016 at 3:43:28 PM

They've been adamant it was magic for quite a while.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#63605: Oct 13th 2016 at 4:20:57 PM

AoS is combining the two in interesting ways. Magic is magic, but science can still affect it even if it can't quite explain it. For example, there are ghosts who drive people insane with a touch. No one can figure out the exact cause, but they can identify the parts of the brain that have gone hyperactive. They decide that temporarily killing them will shut down those hyperactive parts (along with every other part), and when they resuscitate the victims, they're fine. That's the science explanation, but it also works from a magic one: They were cursed, and when they died the curse dissipated because it was done with them.

So maybe that's the general direction Dr. Strange will go in.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#63606: Oct 13th 2016 at 4:24:46 PM

It's really very simple; magic is science that hasn't been explained yet.

They can feature magic in Doctor Strange and simply not explain the exact science behind it in excruciating detail.

edited 13th Oct '16 4:25:24 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63607: Oct 13th 2016 at 4:44:00 PM

They're explicitly not going that route. That's what Thor was already doing.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#63608: Oct 13th 2016 at 4:54:19 PM

Magic being explainable by science and magic being beholden to the other scientifically understandable rules of the universe are two very different things. One is a given, the other is only true or false if the author wants it to be.

Basically every misconception with the magic vs science idea - both on the pro and anti magic sides - comes from conflating those two, or poorly defining science (science isn't physical/universal rules, it's the process of understanding and learning those physical/universal rules).

By virtue of the same principle as "Magic A" Is "Magic A", most forms of magic should be capable of being scientifically understood - because magic needs to have rules in order to be good writing. Where it differs is that magic tends to explicitly be independent from the rest of the universe's physics and characteristics while simultaneously not obsoleting the things it's independent of (rather than an element of physics not yet understood, as would be realistic - note that this separation is a fictional concept is a rule essential to a lot of magical settings, but one that often gets criticized by people looking at fantasy from a realistic point of view), often to the point that things that rely on those characteristics may react negatively to it.

What they're specifically avoiding in Dr. Strange is stuff like the bit in Thor 2 where the Asgardians roll out this pretentiously named magical device and Jane immediately pegs it as technobabble, or Bifrost being a quantifiable phenomenon that humans are already working on harnessing by themselves, by non "magical" means. They're going for a more high fantasy approach, where the only point of reference to understand magic is magic itself.

edited 13th Oct '16 5:04:46 PM by KnownUnknown

RulerOfImagineverse Since: Sep, 2016
#63609: Oct 13th 2016 at 6:44:45 PM

Magic is the act of harnessing energies that come in three and sometimes four-five different categories. It's done through unconventional means humans aren't aware of unless it appears in ways they understand. Magic in Marvel is cosmic related rather than a high fantasy Token rule system.

As I said on the Dr. Strange page, Ant Man can use Pym particles to enter the Quantum Dimension but Strange can use something like his own conscious, a few chants, and an artifact to enter there. Also if you paid attention in IM 3 and AOU, both Killian and Strucker admitted humans have the capacity to rise towards a higher state of being as if they have innate potetioinal waiting to be unlocked. That potinational was unlocked through scientific means and as a result people became augmented with powers. Sorcerers obtain such power without high-end science. How is an utter mystery to everyone who doesn't practice the mystical arts because well it's not part of their acceptable norm. They're not in the mindset, let alone have the knowledge, to perceive and act upon it.

However, unlike the comics magic is nowhere near as descriptive. We have to search for it since it clearly takes on a minimalist approach instead of listeninging to A, B, and C character info dump D, E and F Flash show style. Unless your have knowledge on Marvel's general application of the art finding answers is a lot more difficult. Few characters are sitting around a round table telling us the Orb Of Agamotto distorts space time because it's seeping out energy from the plane of existence where extra dimensional beings risde who resemble abstract concepts found outside their reality in order to help shape said reality. That type of stuff is scattered from plot plot point, and based on the little explanations that do get passed by we still have to make the connection for an appropriate answer. Magic is ______

It may not be 100 percent definable since Ancient One already admitted there are things even she doesn't know in the prelude. Still... we can rule out anything audiences associate with epic fantasies. Might as well point out the obvious. Magic is not an illusion. Sorcery allows people of all walks of life across the multiverse (yes Dormammu performs magic) to control nature and the natural laws in ways science doesnt allow. One last time. The energies they manipulate expand beyond the capabilities of technology other people outside their sphere use daily.

Remember this is an adaptation. What magic is already has an original source to pull from. Dr. Strange isn't making things up on the spot in order to fill in a gap. So that brings up another question. Who truly understands Marvel's magic? Forget about what TV Tropes tells you about Magic. Think about the comics and what already happened in the MCU.

Coulson's team won't come to the same understanding of magic as Steven Strange by default of there being no human sorcerers outside Dr. Strange's context. Fitz and Simmons will try their best to apply every theory they learned to explain what Ghost Rider, Darkhold, and the ghosts are but Wong? Oh he'll get straight the point. Fitz and Simmons may be dumbfounded by him, yet unable to deny his explanation (he wouldn't fake anything. Authenticity plays a big role in order to gain trust). There's one scene from Dr. Strange where Ancient One and Steven go back and forth between sorcery and science: oh chakra is just another way of looking at the nervous system. No it's not. Yes it is (demonstrates). Okay maybe it is. Another example: when the Witch in prelude #1 attacked, bystanders thought not only were there multiple attackers but specifically Dark Elves because her staff had an effect matching their weaponry. Another example not from Dr. Strange: The American military dropped bombs on their soil to test them. One of the bombs tore open a rift into the Dark Force Dimension. A giant physical, pure piece of Darkforce came plopping out. Whitney Frostf studied it, consuming this source of negative energy that absorbs matter. Marcus Daniels revealed Darkforce can alwo absorb something he called life force energy, aka our very essence. What? A scientist already established "souls"? An Inhuman was granted the power to manifests his shadow as entirely composed of Darkforce. Meanwhile, sorcerers through methods we will see in Dr. Strange take different roots to achieve Darkforce manipulation. Sorcerers have will power, they have artifacts embedded with mystical enegeries, they have incantations, they have exepert knowledge of the spiritual enegery all things alive are born with, and they have rituals, tons of them, etc. They don't need technology to evolve their biology so that they can manipulate Darkforce nor explode a hole into its dimension with an atomic force.

Talking about chakra... the utilization of energies reflects Naruto.

edited 14th Oct '16 4:36:22 AM by RulerOfImagineverse

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63610: Oct 14th 2016 at 1:09:42 AM

tl-dr version: Magic can give the middle finger to all established laws of physics all it wants, but it also needs to consistently and predictably function under its own laws of science, lest bad writing ensue.

edited 14th Oct '16 1:11:55 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

RulerOfImagineverse Since: Sep, 2016
#63611: Oct 14th 2016 at 4:41:25 AM

[up] Magic is basically controlling science itself. Even the Hand and those from K'un- Lun are mystical because they aren't using scientific methods to perform their actions. Hell we can count Daredevil, Stick, and Elektra. They can heal wounds through mediation. Yeah let's watch May try meditating gun shots off. However, magic has to stay consistent instead of doing whatever the director wants, which is a problem the source material doesn't really fall victim to. I would say for the most part it stays pretty consistent. Writers tend to keep things from extra dimensions recognizable as mystical and spiritual as opposed to abiding by every scientific law out there. Problem is the mystical artifacts pop out like crazy with no explanation besides magic. A real bad example: Spirit Stone enhances the wearers strength to superhuman levels. Why? Cuz why the hell not, it's magical.

We just haven't had a sorcerer explain magic in their terms yet.[up] That explanation yes has to stay consistent. We watched how science and magic can achieve the same outcome. We watched magical acts. We haven't received the details behind those acts from a magical view point. If the view point changes in every film then oh fuck... the MCU is forever screwed.

edited 14th Oct '16 5:10:10 AM by RulerOfImagineverse

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#63612: Oct 14th 2016 at 5:30:25 AM

It's not up to full blown healing but meditation has been used for pain reduction and to accelerate the healing process

If you're bleeding out a doctor is still preferable

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RulerOfImagineverse Since: Sep, 2016
#63613: Oct 14th 2016 at 6:55:57 AM

[up]A man claimed he pulled an air plane with his penis because he focused his chi. He physically did pull the air plane without his balls ripping off but there was emphasis on homing in to a higher mental state. This concept gets stylized in Marvel's fiction so it appears more supernaturalish; what the three characters from Daredevil did infact led to minor, minor, minor healing. They weren't as physically torn down as when they first got beat half to death. That leaves me to say mediation = healing factor in Marvel.

On the other hand, meditation in real life eliminates mental and emotional obstacles, so your entire organism becomes more healthy. The body becomes relaxed as a result, which means physical stressors are reduced. Sometimes you can gain conscious control of some ordinarily unconscious process, e.g., heart rate. But the MCU and source material doesn't want to treat mediation as a medical treatment even if it sounds a bit unorthodox.

Chi (China), Prana (India), Ki (Japan), and Great Spirit (Northern Americas) are the forces that make us alive. To the ancient cultures that believed in them they were central to those cultures form of medicine and healing. Steve Ditko, Stan Lee, Englehart, and Brunner borrowed the shared idea forces similar to the ones I posted above have and turned them upside down to create something entirely new. Especially the later turned the former's accomplishments into a wider, grander universe that was more consistent with a thriving New Age movement. Marvel has been criticized for exoticizing forces people still believe in today but Englehart and Brunner tried to respect them in ways Lee and Dikto never considered. Therefore, Dr. Strange, a comicbook, became its own religion. Yes it was pure mumbo jumbo with some things based on the audience's beliefs but they weren't directly associated with the misconception of those beliefs. Ancient One provided an alternative worldview to the predominantly Christian culture under their wing.

From the introduction of the exploitative ways Lee and Dikto tore apart religions came [1] Magic was now true Hippy shit. It was something two fans actually practiced. You can see a bit of that in the Dr. Strange prelude. It's not really like the original Dr. Strange comics. When Feiger said the film is staying away from one single religion and capitalizing upon it for its "other worldlyness" he sounds right so far.

edited 14th Oct '16 8:04:29 AM by RulerOfImagineverse

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63614: Oct 14th 2016 at 7:19:07 AM

Guilty Gear's concept of magic was pretty good (The Backyard being the "source code" of the universe that one can hack into using either the old-school method of rituals and spells or the newer method involving beings with a biological link to it or Magitek).

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#63615: Oct 14th 2016 at 7:26:48 AM

I like the Greg Weisman version of science vs. magic: "Energy is energy, whether science or sorcery." A fire still burns just as hot, whether it comes from a flamethrower or is magically summoned. A spell that summons coherent bolts of light and a laser gun have the same result.

One of the Gargoyles' most persistent enemies, Xanatos, once fought a Physical God named Oberon with all the billionaire science tricks at his disposal. Just to give you a sense of his power, Oberon opened up with a spell that put everyone in Manhattan to sleep- but Xanatos's tower had en energy shield, and blocked the spell. Oberon grew to giant size to smash open Xanatos's tower, and while the generators were straining, the shield held. Oberon's own energy reserves were being drained, and he was shrinking with every attack he made. Xanatos then sent out his robot armies to attack Oberon, and while Oberon could do things like summon freezing rain to ground the robots, or animate statues to fight them, the sheer scale of it all was taking its toll. If the battle was simply a brute-force match, Xanatos might have been able to win by throwing all of his many, many non-magical resources and robots at the problem until Oberon gave up or knocked himself out.

As it happens, Oberon realized that he was wasting his power, turned himself intangible, and simply floated up through the ground and under the shields. From there, he destroyed Xanatos's generators, and the defenders were left with hand-held weapons and power armor, all of which Oberon was able to withstand and power through.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#63616: Oct 14th 2016 at 7:47:21 AM

The only reason I was uppity about wanting magic to be shown as something completely different from science back when this was being discussed a jillion years ago was, if it was science-y in any way, it would give writers an excuse to have Tony master it. This was back when it felt like they were making Tony the only important man in the Marvel universe.

My various fanfics.
RulerOfImagineverse Since: Sep, 2016
#63617: Oct 14th 2016 at 8:06:01 AM

[up]Tony can never master magic because one he doesn't have the ambition let alone reason to and secondly it wouldn't make sense for his stories. Without Thor bringing him to Asgard he can't do shit about Asguardain "magic".

edited 14th Oct '16 8:08:16 AM by RulerOfImagineverse

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63618: Oct 14th 2016 at 8:08:06 AM

I still want to see him take on a Makluan, which is as close as he should get to the fantastical in his own movies (or, er', cosmic since Makluans are technically aliens/Ancient Astronauts who inspired the dragon myths of humans)

edited 14th Oct '16 8:11:48 AM by nervmeister

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#63619: Oct 14th 2016 at 8:27:42 AM

Feige really wants Strange and Stark to meet onscreen apparently. It's coming.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63620: Oct 14th 2016 at 9:09:29 AM

Meanwhile, a lot of fans just want them to share screentime so someone can say, "No shit, Sherlock" and they can exchange an awkward glance.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#63621: Oct 14th 2016 at 9:33:58 AM

[up] Both of those sound just painful.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63622: Oct 14th 2016 at 11:23:07 AM

Painfully great, you mean.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#63623: Oct 14th 2016 at 12:12:35 PM

Even worse: I've already seen fanart where Stephen Strange and Everett Ross share an offspring.

123tbones Since: Aug, 2015
#63624: Oct 14th 2016 at 12:21:54 PM

If only Jude Law were to enter the MCU, then we can truly have the Sherlock-Watson showdown.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#63625: Oct 14th 2016 at 12:31:45 PM

[up] You mean a fanfic about an orgy starring them.


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