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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#63501: Oct 9th 2016 at 5:56:30 PM

'Enhanced strength'. That's the word I was looking for. That's what's MCU!Cap's got; a step above peak human, but below out-and-out Superstrength. It's enough to bring down a helicopter with some effort, but nothing more than that. Though the above explanation still works either way.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63502: Oct 9th 2016 at 6:07:04 PM

MCU Spider-Man is wayyy stronger than Cap. He held up that collapsing...thing, I forget if it was the building or the plane. Either way, really.

It was a shipping container.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63503: Oct 9th 2016 at 6:11:51 PM

That's not as impressive as I remembered, but thank you. Still a couple metric tonnes, and that's assuming it's empty.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#63504: Oct 9th 2016 at 6:56:28 PM

Cap can kick people hard enough that they fly backwards like ten feet and hit metal walls hard enough to dent them (as seen in TWS). He can jump out of a plane flying at pretty high altitudes, hit the water (choppy ocean water no less) without a parachute (and we see that the rest of his team, including Black Widow and Crossbones, all have to use parachutes) and suffer no damage, he can softball a motorcycle and throw it pretty far, He can jump out of a window, fall like 20 stories, crash through a glass skylight, and land on cement, and it just knocks the wind out of him for a few seconds. Moments later, he takes out a Quinjet using only his bare hands and shield. He can stop a helicopter from taking off by holding onto it with one arm, and he can trade punches with Tony when Tony is in his armor, etc.

MCU Cap is clearly super-human.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#63505: Oct 9th 2016 at 8:56:09 PM

Oh yeah, and the previous time he lifted a motorcycle and there were three people sitting on it.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#63506: Oct 9th 2016 at 9:11:44 PM

Just take this song and replace the name with "Captain America":

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#63507: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:55:12 PM

The thing with the "peak human" definition is that we have no idea how much a human can "peak" in the first place. We know what is possible with training, but we don't know what a human body can do if every aspect of it is pushed to reach the "ideal" so to speak. It is therefore a pretty useless definition. All I know is that Cap has shown to be stronger than the Average hero, but not as strong as, for example, Spider-man or the Hulk. But I can imagine that he could wrestle with Thor just fine.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#63508: Oct 9th 2016 at 11:14:05 PM

[up]Nah. It goes Tony Stark (no suit) -> Black Widow -> Captain America -> Iron Man (with suit) -> Spider-Man -> Thor -> The Hulk.

I mean, we've seen Thor and the Hulk fight each other pretty much to a standstill.

edited 9th Oct '16 11:14:39 PM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#63509: Oct 10th 2016 at 1:04:30 AM

[up] True...I actually forgot about that. Though I think that Steve, Thor, Tony and Bruce could take other out under the right circumstances....Tony can tackle the Hulk with the right suit, and I think that Steve would simply use his mind when everything fails....

In a way, Steve in not defeatable anyway. You can kill him, but you can't really defeat him.

edited 10th Oct '16 1:06:12 AM by Swanpride

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#63510: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:16:50 AM

I feel that the power level also wavers a little, depending which movie or show you have at the given moment. If you put Cap, Luke and Jess against each other on equal footing, I think they would have similar strength, but Luke likely has the best endurance/healing, and Steve has a clear advantage because his training compliments his enhanced abilities. I think basically these three, together with Bucky and T'Challa form a group of super-powered people, who can easily best normal and slightly above-average people, but get in trouble with anything enhanced by technology (suits), trained aliens with superior skills, and humans who were possibly crossed with something else (do we even know how MCU!Spidey got his powers yet?).

[up] Steve is so mule-headed, he'd probably come back as a zombie and wouldn't stop until he has beaten everyone. *cue crawling corpse from TWD pilot*

edited 10th Oct '16 3:18:22 AM by hollygoolightly

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#63511: Oct 10th 2016 at 5:19:28 AM

Thor probably has the edge on the Hulk. The first Avengers had him a disadvantageous position (inside the Helicarrier he cannot summon lightning or storm without taking the whole ship down) and he still fought Hulk to a standstill. Thor also has more versatility, being able to fly and such.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#63512: Oct 10th 2016 at 7:30:23 AM

Exactly. It's something we don't get to see on film very often lately, where so often all the effort goes into making fights fair— we often miss out on those long, loving scenes dedicated to showing how much the hero outmatches the bad guys.

There's a reason for that - it's boring and lacks tension.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63513: Oct 10th 2016 at 7:49:34 AM

I feel that the power level also wavers a little, depending which movie or show you have at the given moment.

That's what happens when you try to oversimplify things to power levels. Who would win a fight is not as simple as, "Well, Thor has a Power Level of 185 while the Hulk only has a Power Level of 180, so Thor wins."

Some characters are stronger than others, but that's far from the only thing that matters in a matchup.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63514: Oct 10th 2016 at 7:57:41 AM

Yeah, unlike in Dragon Ball, where everyone uses the same source of power and variations are rare, comics have a HUGE variation of strength, speed, durability, endurance, weapons, fighting skill, fighting style, and the superpowers themselves, which can vary DRASTICALLY.

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#63515: Oct 10th 2016 at 8:31:42 AM

Regarding peak-humans, on the wiki it's mentioned that regular humans really can lift cars and dent metal so forth- it's just really, really bad for your body. So, maybe part of Captain America being at peak human strength means "can do what everyone else can do, but all the time with ripping his muscles apart."

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#63516: Oct 10th 2016 at 8:33:18 AM

You can counter certain skills with different skills...for example Loki outmatches Hawkeye more or less on every level, but Hawkeye can still get one over him with a trick arrow. In fact most villains are able to hurt Hawkeye in a close up match, but that's why Hawkeye doesn't fight hand-to-hand combats with anyone but Black Widow (and he looses against her, too, btw), and instead attacks from the distance which puts him more in advantage.

Steve is definitely weaker than Spider-man, but with a few nifty moves and by using what is available to him, he can defeat him.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63517: Oct 10th 2016 at 8:44:52 AM

Quite. Rogers has experience, actual martial training, and a profound tactical acumen over Parker. Even on that last point, Parker's probably smarter than Rogers, but Rogers's knowhow specializes in field tactics and combat techniques where Parker's more science-minded.

So even though Spidey outmatches Cap in physical ability, Cap was still able to knock him around a bit and trap him under the shipping container, temporarily taking him out of the fight.

He didn't win because he was stronger than Spidey. He won because he's a better fighter.

edited 10th Oct '16 8:45:56 AM by TobiasDrake

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ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#63518: Oct 10th 2016 at 9:02:30 AM

And he lucked out with a fighting style that doesn't end up getting him Spider Sense'd into missing everything.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#63519: Oct 10th 2016 at 9:12:23 AM

I apologize if that has been posted already since it is not that new anymore, but here is a third video concerning the "Music in the MCU" discussion:

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#63520: Oct 10th 2016 at 9:42:43 AM

Even in the comics and prior movies, spider-sense doesn't actually stop him from getting hit. It gives him a vague warning something bad is about to happen, but it's not like an actual precognitive vision.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63521: Oct 10th 2016 at 9:46:49 AM

It still helps keep him from being blindsided. At least, it's supposed to. The movies and occasionally the comics have a habit of forgetting it's there at convenient moments.

Depending on the writer, it sometimes also gives him enhanced situational awareness, not unlike Dare Devil's radar sense. He's even got tracking devices attuned so that his Spider-Sense will lead him to them.

In either case, it's a detection system that lets him know he needs to react to something. The "keep him from getting hit" part is where his Spider-Agility comes in.

It's only part of the package, but it's a package that - when fully assembled with both the elements the spider gave him and the elements Peter brought himself - come together to make one of the most formidable non-Cosmic characters in the Marvel universe. At least, when he's got a few more years of experience under his belt.

edited 10th Oct '16 9:47:56 AM by TobiasDrake

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#63522: Oct 10th 2016 at 11:07:15 AM

Generally, whenever we see Spider-Sense going off its to have Spidey notice a sneak attack in just too little time to avoid it, thus creating a moment of dramatic tension as something surprising happens. Sometimes it's used so much like this that it can look like a Useless Useful Superpower, like in Spider Man The Animated Series or the Raimi movies.

When the audience's attention isn't drawn to his Spidey Sense, that's when it's allowed to make him untouchable and supplement his super-reflexes to incredible levels.

edited 10th Oct '16 11:09:11 AM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63523: Oct 10th 2016 at 11:14:43 AM

We also see it go off regarding things that aren't an immediate violent threat, either.

In the comics right now, he's dealing with a company called New U that makes cloned organs for people in need of a transplant. He's super suspicious of the company without any explicit reason to be because whenever he's in the room with a patient who has one of the organs, his Spider-Sense starts going off like crazy. Even though there is no imminent physical danger, it's still buzzing him that something is desperately wrong.

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thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#63524: Oct 10th 2016 at 11:20:11 AM

You don't really get to keep being a company after the public finds out that your CEO attempted to assassinate the President of the United States as part of a False Flag terrorist attack in order to disguise how shitty your products are.

I don't know, i think Apple could pull it off.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63525: Oct 10th 2016 at 11:24:04 AM

There's a reason for that - it's boring and lacks tension.

It'd be boring if that's all we ever saw, but variety is the spice of life, etc. Tension isn't the only way for a scene to be exciting— it's one way, I'm not against, I like tension— but there's nothing wrong with a Curb-Stomp Battle going in either direction. Action can be fun unto itself, and Luke Cage decidedly isn't boring, in part because the tension lies elsewhere. Having his greatest enemy— Mariah Dillard— not be the strongest physical threat makes perfect sense for a bulletproof man. Opposing her is about shaping public opinion, hearts and minds. So the fights don't always need to be tense. Sometimes a fight scene is there to release tension, to be cathartic. And chances are they'll never stop coming, precisely because it's not about physical domination.

edited 10th Oct '16 12:43:22 PM by Unsung


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