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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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But instead the one good member of the Hand was coincidentally also the lone white guy, who was being forced against his will to do bad things by the evil Asians, right?
It really is a show where Asian = Evil, and in fact, Evil = Asian. At this point, I frankly don't see what Daredevil could do to make up for it.
And people wonder why I'm pessimistic about Iron Fist.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."DD 2 also gave a really good argument why Frank Castle should be incarcerated, so him walking away at the end just wasn't satisying. And honestly series one of Punisher taking place inside a prison sounds great to me.
Also the series argued well that Elektra should have agency within the narrative, and then, likewise, did the opposite.
I agree that the Hand should have had fleshed out characters and should have been more diverse.
That would be pretty difficult, as the best answer would be to just do a different story. But off the top of my head, the first suggestion I can make is that Hand mook that Matt had tied up in his apartment? Rather than having Elektra kill him for shock value, Matt's decision to show mercy should have been something that came back at a later point in a positive way.
It was a perfect opportunity for Matt to put his money where his mouth is and reap a positive benefit towards the goal of defeating The Hand in exchange for taking a chance. But the show isn't really interested in Matt's philosophy actually getting results. Stick and Elektra criticize him for being soft and weak, and the narrative tends to take their side on the matter. That's not a great way to treat your protagonist.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.edited 4th Oct '16 2:52:53 PM by alliterator
x4 I mean, from what we've heard about Iron Fist, I don't think we'll have a problem of "Asian = Evil" (whether "Evil = Asian" will be a problem remains to be seen, but if that earlier mention of white actors being cast for known villains is accurate, then it probably won't be).
It's the Mighty Whitey trope that's the problem here.
I should note that I think that Yellow Peril wouldn't be as much of an issue if our hero was also Asian - after all, most of the villains on Luke Cage were Black, but so was our hero and pretty much all of our supporting protagonists, and a vast majority of the cast in general. Iron Fist, on the other hand, has shackled itself with a white male protagonist, which is something of an issue, especially for the type of story that they've decided to go with.
I mean, I wouldn't have wanted them to kill off Fisk, and his appearance in Season 2 was a welcome surprise, and I loved seeing him turning into the Kingpin proper. But I think the problem is that combined with Elektra, Stick and Frank killing people off all the time, it paints Matt as ineffectual, and that's not something you want your hero to be seen as. There were plenty of times over the course of the season where I was getting fed up with Matt, and this one of the reasons for that - as much as he complains, he doesn't really have much ground to stand on when it legitimately seems like things would be better off if these people were dead.
I mean, have your hero's values be called into question, absolutely, but if you want us to take his side, you should probably have him be proven right once in a while.
I don't know, maybe they're playing the long game here, but if they are, then Season 2 was weaker for it.
edited 4th Oct '16 3:00:54 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!Vicious circles are a product of the infinitely ongoing nature of comic book storytelling. Assuming that the Netflix shows aren't planning to be doing Season 82 in the year 2157, it has to end at some point. That's just life. There's no such thing as the endless dance between Batman and Joker. Eventually, something's going to happen. Batman's going to die, or Joker's going to die, or Joker's not going to get out of prison this time.
And that tends to be the case in adaptations due to their limited nature compared to the unlimited nature of the comics. There will be no eternal rivalry between Fisk and Murdock. Nor should there be because it's a really sociopathic concept that diminishes the victims for the sake of perpetuating the Status Quo. Sometimes at the expense of actual, beloved characters rather than nameless extras. Characters like Barbara Gordon.
Eventually, it has to end. It has to end somehow. And the fact that Fisk is still dangerous in prison is just another hit against Matt's no-kill policy. Because it means this, like every other conflict he's failing to resolve, is only going to end in death too.
Because, ultimately, that's what a vicious circle is: a cycle of failure. A symbol of impotence on the part of both hero and villain, representing both characters' inability to affect any kind of change on the conflict in which they are embroiled. It's a WWI standoff where nobody wins, everyone fails, and the only real consequence is that the rivers of blood keep flowing.
edited 4th Oct '16 3:08:50 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.![]()
The back half of Daredevil Season 2 has too much going on at once, to the detriment of its main cast. Any episode that had both the Punisher/Fisk and Elektra/Stick/The Hand would've done better to have one or the other.
I also wonder if having Elektra's death/resurrection be part of the war with the Hand rather than a season-ending hook could have made that story and her character stronger. It could've at least made the Hand appear less ineffectual, since they wouldn't need to continue being cryptic about their whole scheme, thus not getting any lines or characterization.
Matt not killing people because he's afraid of letting loose, unleashing the Devil inside him, seems more in keeping with the character we saw in Season 1, rather than having it be a strictly moral objection. It's a flaw, he can recognize it as a flaw, but it's holding something much worse in check, and he doesn't necessarily hold others to the same standard. And even then, he can still make the distinction between killing a few key bad guys like Fisk or Nobu, and going on a citywide killing spree like Frank.
edited 4th Oct '16 6:31:06 PM by Unsung
I remember watching Matt asking what Elektra being Black Sky meant, Stick saying that it meant "the end of the world", and being extremely frustrated.
A little less vague, please! I mean, seriously, why can't you just explain it?!
I've always disliked when someone refuses to provide an explanation, even when it would make perfect sense to do so, and they have no good reason not to.
edited 4th Oct '16 3:22:39 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!What I'm curious about is how Jessica is supposed to fight the ninjas. She's strong but they are better fighters than her and she's not invincible like Luke.
Although it would be hilarious for Punisher to randomly walk in on a Hand Fight and just start spraying with a machine gun.
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I hate that too. Vagueness Is Coming is one of my bigger Pet Peeve Tropes.
I haven't really been following the news - has it been confirmed that Defenders will be about them fighting the Hand, or is this still just speculation?
edited 4th Oct '16 3:26:31 PM by RBluefish
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Another reason I don't like him, then.
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See, I don't mind that too much if, say, the person spouting vagueness is vague because that's all they know, or it wouldn't be a good idea to do so, or they just like messing with them (really only preferable for villains or neutral parties).
This, however? I can't think of any reason why Stick didn't just say, "Here's what's going to happen..."
...Then again, maybe he doesn't know, and the Chaste have only been passing down general knowledge, while the exact details have been lost to time, meaning that they're essentially acting on pure dogma now.
That might be interesting, although it would have been nice if they had just said something to that effect.
edited 4th Oct '16 3:31:37 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!You're trying to link the wrong things. The show doesn't have to prove them wrong for Danny to be the protagonist. It has to prove them right or wrong in order for that character trait to have a reason to be there at all. Otherwise the character is being antagonistic for no narrative reason and to no effect, and so is going to come off as looking like even more of a Jerkass because there's no payoff.
A character who is against the character being who they are is a narratively relevant thing. You can get away with just having it be there for bit characters, but not important ones. And in a case like this, how you portray it matters. If it's a trait that's just there not important, you're dismissing the criticism as not relevant. If they're proven wrong, you're also doing something similar. And if you prove them right, you're devaluing her protagonist for the sake of the message.
You say there are ways they can do it without it being problematic. I'm legitimately interesting in hearing an example.
edited 4th Oct '16 3:31:35 PM by KnownUnknown
(In fact, that's pretty much what Daredevil reminds me of: Angel. Especially the vicious circle, the fact that no matter how many wins Angel gets, he still loses. The Senior Partners are even worse than Fisk, actually, because you can't kill them. They don't exist despite humanity, they exist because of humanity.)
Another idea: like Fraction and Brubaker's Immortal Iron Fist series, there have been many, many Iron Fists. Some have used their power for good, some for not so good. (In fact, I would love if we got flashbacks to previous Iron Fists.) Just as Danny is the Iron Fist now, they are already training another Iron Fist for when Danny dies (who could be Pei
).
I remember reading somewhere someone mentioning that Luke Cage as a series actually does a better job of showing why Frank Castle's indiscriminate killing method is bad than Daredevil itself does, because LC humanizes some of the characters, like Chico and Shameek, who end up going into crime and convincing us that people like them deserve a second chance, where as DD never really did that. I don't know how much I agree, but it's an interesting thought.
When we're done, there won't be anything left.I've wondered the same thing. While they'll likely find a way to deal with him, Luke at least has the fact that he's fucking invulnerable and almost as strong as Jess going in his favour. Jess actually can be hurt by bullets even if she likely tanks them better then most.
He's done that already.
One Strip! One Strip!That doesn't really change anything. Several examples of Mighty Whitey are apologetic about it. But the arc goes on - it just makes him a reluctant hero as apposed to a straightforward one. And if there are people around capable of both embodying the culture and criticizing him for entering it than there must be other candidates for the mantle - and whether he's reluctant or not the people criticizing him have to accept that he's the one destined to be the champion of their culture.
If he's legitimately all alone, that removes that particular problem but brings with it its own set of issues.
edited 4th Oct '16 5:00:54 PM by KnownUnknown
Man, I just wanna see the good guy beat up a bunch of bad guys in super-awesome, well-shot, well-choreographed action sequences and it has a good story. Can’t I sneeze and it coincidentally sounds like “Iron Fist” without it exploding into a giant racial debate? Why can’t Danny Rand just be the best at Kung Fu because he’s the hero?
My various fanfics.I dunno, it's just kind of depressing that almost none of the discussion for the Netflix show has been "Do you think the lead actor will do a good job?", "What should the plot be?", "Who should the main antagonist be?", or any of that kind of stuff. The majority of the conversation almost always falls back to "How does this prove that Marvel supports the hierarchy of the white devil?"
edited 4th Oct '16 5:08:53 PM by SonOfSharknado
My various fanfics.

If they had made that one guy associated with the Hand who turned out to be not such a bad guy after all Asian, and if they had shown their Mooks to be more ethnically diverse (like, they obviously have their roots in Japan, but they've since expanded so that their ranks are now made of people from all over the world), I think they would've avoided the worst of it.
edited 4th Oct '16 2:37:13 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!