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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#63076: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:36:03 PM

If they had made that one guy associated with the Hand who turned out to be not such a bad guy after all Asian, and if they had shown their Mooks to be more ethnically diverse (like, they obviously have their roots in Japan, but they've since expanded so that their ranks are now made of people from all over the world), I think they would've avoided the worst of it.

edited 4th Oct '16 2:37:13 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#63077: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:39:19 PM

So Tobias, how would you rewrite that part of Daredevil's second season so that it isn't a Shaggy Dog Story?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#63078: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:39:55 PM

[up][up] But instead the one good member of the Hand was coincidentally also the lone white guy, who was being forced against his will to do bad things by the evil Asians, right?

It really is a show where Asian = Evil, and in fact, Evil = Asian. At this point, I frankly don't see what Daredevil could do to make up for it.

And people wonder why I'm pessimistic about Iron Fist.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#63079: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:47:34 PM

DD 2 also gave a really good argument why Frank Castle should be incarcerated, so him walking away at the end just wasn't satisying. And honestly series one of Punisher taking place inside a prison sounds great to me.

Also the series argued well that Elektra should have agency within the narrative, and then, likewise, did the opposite.

I agree that the Hand should have had fleshed out characters and should have been more diverse.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63080: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:48:53 PM

So Tobias, how would you rewrite that part of Daredevil's second season so that it isn't a Shaggy Dog Story?

That would be pretty difficult, as the best answer would be to just do a different story. But off the top of my head, the first suggestion I can make is that Hand mook that Matt had tied up in his apartment? Rather than having Elektra kill him for shock value, Matt's decision to show mercy should have been something that came back at a later point in a positive way.

It was a perfect opportunity for Matt to put his money where his mouth is and reap a positive benefit towards the goal of defeating The Hand in exchange for taking a chance. But the show isn't really interested in Matt's philosophy actually getting results. Stick and Elektra criticize him for being soft and weak, and the narrative tends to take their side on the matter. That's not a great way to treat your protagonist.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#63081: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:52:10 PM

At best they could end up The Lancer, but the plot is going to have to prove wrong their belief that the character is inherently unfit for the role, or prove them right at the expense of the characters' position in that role.
And this is what I am disagreeing with. The plot doesn't have to prove them wrong in order to still have Danny be the protagonist. You keep saying that the narrative has to prove Danny right in order for him to be the protagonist, but that isn't true — there are many ways you could subvert it, as well as subvert The Chosen One and tropes like it.

The season also shows us that Wilson Fisk is still dangerous in prison, which means Matt's nonlethal defeat of him at the end of season 1 accomplished somewhere between f*ck and all.
I actually like this reveal, because we know that Fisk isn't going to kill Matt or Foggy, so the Kingpin isn't going to win either. Neither one of them can win in the end, it's just a vicious circle.

edited 4th Oct '16 2:52:53 PM by alliterator

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#63082: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:53:09 PM

[up]x4 I mean, from what we've heard about Iron Fist, I don't think we'll have a problem of "Asian = Evil" (whether "Evil = Asian" will be a problem remains to be seen, but if that earlier mention of white actors being cast for known villains is accurate, then it probably won't be).

It's the Mighty Whitey trope that's the problem here.

I should note that I think that Yellow Peril wouldn't be as much of an issue if our hero was also Asian - after all, most of the villains on Luke Cage were Black, but so was our hero and pretty much all of our supporting protagonists, and a vast majority of the cast in general. Iron Fist, on the other hand, has shackled itself with a white male protagonist, which is something of an issue, especially for the type of story that they've decided to go with.

[up] I mean, I wouldn't have wanted them to kill off Fisk, and his appearance in Season 2 was a welcome surprise, and I loved seeing him turning into the Kingpin proper. But I think the problem is that combined with Elektra, Stick and Frank killing people off all the time, it paints Matt as ineffectual, and that's not something you want your hero to be seen as. There were plenty of times over the course of the season where I was getting fed up with Matt, and this one of the reasons for that - as much as he complains, he doesn't really have much ground to stand on when it legitimately seems like things would be better off if these people were dead.

I mean, have your hero's values be called into question, absolutely, but if you want us to take his side, you should probably have him be proven right once in a while.

I don't know, maybe they're playing the long game here, but if they are, then Season 2 was weaker for it.

edited 4th Oct '16 3:00:54 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63083: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:07:48 PM

I actually like this reveal, because we know that Fisk isn't going to kill Matt or Foggy, so the Kingpin isn't going to win either. Neither one of them can win in the end, it's just a vicious circle.

Vicious circles are a product of the infinitely ongoing nature of comic book storytelling. Assuming that the Netflix shows aren't planning to be doing Season 82 in the year 2157, it has to end at some point. That's just life. There's no such thing as the endless dance between Batman and Joker. Eventually, something's going to happen. Batman's going to die, or Joker's going to die, or Joker's not going to get out of prison this time.

And that tends to be the case in adaptations due to their limited nature compared to the unlimited nature of the comics. There will be no eternal rivalry between Fisk and Murdock. Nor should there be because it's a really sociopathic concept that diminishes the victims for the sake of perpetuating the Status Quo. Sometimes at the expense of actual, beloved characters rather than nameless extras. Characters like Barbara Gordon.

Eventually, it has to end. It has to end somehow. And the fact that Fisk is still dangerous in prison is just another hit against Matt's no-kill policy. Because it means this, like every other conflict he's failing to resolve, is only going to end in death too.

Because, ultimately, that's what a vicious circle is: a cycle of failure. A symbol of impotence on the part of both hero and villain, representing both characters' inability to affect any kind of change on the conflict in which they are embroiled. It's a WWI standoff where nobody wins, everyone fails, and the only real consequence is that the rivers of blood keep flowing.

edited 4th Oct '16 3:08:50 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63084: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:13:06 PM

[up][up]The back half of Daredevil Season 2 has too much going on at once, to the detriment of its main cast. Any episode that had both the Punisher/Fisk and Elektra/Stick/The Hand would've done better to have one or the other.

I also wonder if having Elektra's death/resurrection be part of the war with the Hand rather than a season-ending hook could have made that story and her character stronger. It could've at least made the Hand appear less ineffectual, since they wouldn't need to continue being cryptic about their whole scheme, thus not getting any lines or characterization.

[up]Matt not killing people because he's afraid of letting loose, unleashing the Devil inside him, seems more in keeping with the character we saw in Season 1, rather than having it be a strictly moral objection. It's a flaw, he can recognize it as a flaw, but it's holding something much worse in check, and he doesn't necessarily hold others to the same standard. And even then, he can still make the distinction between killing a few key bad guys like Fisk or Nobu, and going on a citywide killing spree like Frank.

edited 4th Oct '16 6:31:06 PM by Unsung

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#63085: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:22:24 PM

I remember watching Matt asking what Elektra being Black Sky meant, Stick saying that it meant "the end of the world", and being extremely frustrated.

A little less vague, please! I mean, seriously, why can't you just explain it?!

I've always disliked when someone refuses to provide an explanation, even when it would make perfect sense to do so, and they have no good reason not to.

edited 4th Oct '16 3:22:39 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#63086: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:24:55 PM

What I'm curious about is how Jessica is supposed to fight the ninjas. She's strong but they are better fighters than her and she's not invincible like Luke.

Although it would be hilarious for Punisher to randomly walk in on a Hand Fight and just start spraying with a machine gun. [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#63087: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:25:47 PM

[up][up] I hate that too. Vagueness Is Coming is one of my bigger Pet Peeve Tropes.

[up] I haven't really been following the news - has it been confirmed that Defenders will be about them fighting the Hand, or is this still just speculation?

edited 4th Oct '16 3:26:31 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#63088: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:26:54 PM

[up]I wonder if Stick not giving an explanation was just him being an asshole as usual.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#63089: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:29:52 PM

[up] Another reason I don't like him, then.

[up][up] See, I don't mind that too much if, say, the person spouting vagueness is vague because that's all they know, or it wouldn't be a good idea to do so, or they just like messing with them (really only preferable for villains or neutral parties).

This, however? I can't think of any reason why Stick didn't just say, "Here's what's going to happen..."

...Then again, maybe he doesn't know, and the Chaste have only been passing down general knowledge, while the exact details have been lost to time, meaning that they're essentially acting on pure dogma now.

That might be interesting, although it would have been nice if they had just said something to that effect.

edited 4th Oct '16 3:31:37 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#63090: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:30:11 PM

And this is what I am disagreeing with. The plot doesn't have to prove them wrong in order to still have Danny be the protagonist. You keep saying that the narrative has to prove Danny right in order for him to be the protagonist, but that isn't true — there are many ways you could subvert it, as well as subvert The Chosen One and tropes like it.

You're trying to link the wrong things. The show doesn't have to prove them wrong for Danny to be the protagonist. It has to prove them right or wrong in order for that character trait to have a reason to be there at all. Otherwise the character is being antagonistic for no narrative reason and to no effect, and so is going to come off as looking like even more of a Jerkass because there's no payoff.

A character who is against the character being who they are is a narratively relevant thing. You can get away with just having it be there for bit characters, but not important ones. And in a case like this, how you portray it matters. If it's a trait that's just there not important, you're dismissing the criticism as not relevant. If they're proven wrong, you're also doing something similar. And if you prove them right, you're devaluing her protagonist for the sake of the message.

You say there are ways they can do it without it being problematic. I'm legitimately interesting in hearing an example.

edited 4th Oct '16 3:31:35 PM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#63091: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:47:16 PM

Assuming that the Netflix shows aren't planning to be doing Season 82 in the year 2157, it has to end at some point. That's just life.
Not so. Might I point out the series finale of Angel, entitled "Not Fade Away," which ended with them fighting and, it was implied, them always fighting. The entire theme of the show was, in fact, "even if you can't win, you can still fight."

(In fact, that's pretty much what Daredevil reminds me of: Angel. Especially the vicious circle, the fact that no matter how many wins Angel gets, he still loses. The Senior Partners are even worse than Fisk, actually, because you can't kill them. They don't exist despite humanity, they exist because of humanity.)

It has to prove them right or wrong in order for that character trait to have a reason to be there at all.
Not so. All the show has to do is ask the question, it doesn't have to answer it. Danny can say "Perhaps I'm not the best person for the job...but I'm the only one here right now."

Otherwise the character is being antagonistic for no narrative reason and to no effect, and so is going to come off as looking like even more of a Jerk Ass because there's no payoff.
A character arguing with the protagonist doesn't automatically make them antagonistic. They aren't fighting with Danny, they are arguing with him.

You say there are ways they can do it without it being problematic. I'm legitimately interesting in hearing an example.
Again: Danny could agree. He knows that he's no better than some of the other students, perhaps only a bit luckier. Plus, he wants to rebuild his life and being Iron Fist is impedement to that. But he still acts as Iron Fist because there's nobody else around to take the mantle.

Another idea: like Fraction and Brubaker's Immortal Iron Fist series, there have been many, many Iron Fists. Some have used their power for good, some for not so good. (In fact, I would love if we got flashbacks to previous Iron Fists.) Just as Danny is the Iron Fist now, they are already training another Iron Fist for when Danny dies (who could be Pei).

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#63092: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:54:08 PM

I remember reading somewhere someone mentioning that Luke Cage as a series actually does a better job of showing why Frank Castle's indiscriminate killing method is bad than Daredevil itself does, because LC humanizes some of the characters, like Chico and Shameek, who end up going into crime and convincing us that people like them deserve a second chance, where as DD never really did that. I don't know how much I agree, but it's an interesting thought.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63093: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:56:30 PM

An Asian person hating a white guy just for being white and good at martial arts is not going to be a good person in-universe. Racism is a trait almost exclusively for bad people.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63094: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:59:32 PM

What I'm curious about is how Jessica is supposed to fight the ninjas. She's strong but they are better fighters than her and she's not invincible like Luke.

I've wondered the same thing. While they'll likely find a way to deal with him, Luke at least has the fact that he's fucking invulnerable and almost as strong as Jess going in his favour. Jess actually can be hurt by bullets even if she likely tanks them better then most.

Although it would be hilarious for Punisher to randomly walk in on a Hand Fight and just start spraying with a machine gun.

He's done that already.

One Strip! One Strip!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#63095: Oct 4th 2016 at 4:05:15 PM

Remember, however, that the Hand doesn't use guns. And even though Jessica isn't bulletproof, she is pretty tough (she got hit by a car and then walked away — it hurt but she healed).

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63096: Oct 4th 2016 at 4:09:51 PM

She's got a pretty high tolerance for at least one kind of poison.

Also, aside from walking away from (more than one) car wreck, she could probably throw said car into a cluster of Hand(s), if pressed.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#63097: Oct 4th 2016 at 4:27:53 PM

Again: Danny could agree. He knows that he's no better than some of the other students, perhaps only a bit luckier. Plus, he wants to rebuild his life and being Iron Fist is impedement to that. But he still acts as Iron Fist because there's nobody else around to take the mantle.

That doesn't really change anything. Several examples of Mighty Whitey are apologetic about it. But the arc goes on - it just makes him a reluctant hero as apposed to a straightforward one. And if there are people around capable of both embodying the culture and criticizing him for entering it than there must be other candidates for the mantle - and whether he's reluctant or not the people criticizing him have to accept that he's the one destined to be the champion of their culture.

If he's legitimately all alone, that removes that particular problem but brings with it its own set of issues.

edited 4th Oct '16 5:00:54 PM by KnownUnknown

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#63098: Oct 4th 2016 at 5:03:27 PM

Man, I just wanna see the good guy beat up a bunch of bad guys in super-awesome, well-shot, well-choreographed action sequences and it has a good story. Can’t I sneeze and it coincidentally sounds like “Iron Fist” without it exploding into a giant racial debate? Why can’t Danny Rand just be the best at Kung Fu because he’s the hero?

My various fanfics.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63099: Oct 4th 2016 at 5:05:10 PM

[up]Who says you cant enjoy it AND talk about the issues it raises?

edited 4th Oct '16 5:05:38 PM by nervmeister

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#63100: Oct 4th 2016 at 5:08:39 PM

I dunno, it's just kind of depressing that almost none of the discussion for the Netflix show has been "Do you think the lead actor will do a good job?", "What should the plot be?", "Who should the main antagonist be?", or any of that kind of stuff. The majority of the conversation almost always falls back to "How does this prove that Marvel supports the hierarchy of the white devil?"

edited 4th Oct '16 5:08:53 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.

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