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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#63051: Oct 4th 2016 at 12:46:21 PM

...no, they couldn't. A character cannot simultaneously be a mouthpiece for the criticism of Danny's Mighty Whitey status AND not antagonistic towards him in the slightest over it.
Yes, actually, you can. You can have people criticize Danny for being a Mighty Whitey and still be allies with him. That is definitely something that can happen.

Stop trying to say that there are only two sides to this. I wanted an Asian-American Iron Fist, too, but now that we aren't getting one, I'm looking to see all the ways that the show can still be good. There are literally tons of ways that the show can subvert cliches and overturn the Mighty Whitey trope and still have a white protagonist.

So no, I disagree with you. A lot.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63052: Oct 4th 2016 at 12:47:13 PM

[up][up]I just loved how in episode 5, Luke hardly bothered to hide from the public eye, opting instead to walk around in his "superhero costume" (basically nice business attire) and smack around mooks with minimal effort.

Still, I wouldn't mind seeing Iron Fist play out like a gory Shaw Bros epic in Harlem or Hell's Kitchen. (with RZA as The Cameo) BTW, is Gordon Liu currently busy?

edited 4th Oct '16 1:02:32 PM by nervmeister

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#63053: Oct 4th 2016 at 1:24:03 PM

I mentioned it elsewhere already, but what if they make the Culture Shock for Danny Rand the centre of the show? Not the culture shock when he ends up in Kun Lun, but when he comes back "home" and just doesn't fit in anymore. It could be a great parallel to explaining the plight of children who get adopted in a different country (usually from poorer countries to the Western ones) and end up not understanding their heritage told in a way that "the white guys" might understand what kind of loss and disfranchised feeling that is (well....if you consider not experiencing what American considering "culture" a loss.....tongue).

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#63054: Oct 4th 2016 at 1:33:00 PM

I don't think I'd have noticed any Unfortunate Implications in Daredevil season 2, Iron Fist, or Man-Ape from the Black Panther comics if I didn't see people mention them.

edited 4th Oct '16 1:38:39 PM by FoxBoxKid

Make mine Marvel.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63055: Oct 4th 2016 at 1:39:57 PM

[up]Hence why people mention them.

In DD Season 2, the Hand are mostly just there as props— a bunch of Japanese mooks who exist solely to be mowed down by the white protagonists. It's insensitive as a portrayal of Asian culture just on the face of it, but also not a particularly sensitive portrayal of the value of human life in general in a show where not killing people has been a real sticking point all season. For that matter they're barely even a portrayal at all. You could have replaced the zombie ninjas with exploding robots out of the Power Rangers and it would have been about the same.

edited 4th Oct '16 1:43:01 PM by Unsung

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#63057: Oct 4th 2016 at 1:48:01 PM

What I'd like to see from Iron Fist is Danny getting character development in which he realises taking a coveted cultural power and using it to sort out a personal issue on the other side of the planet was pretty dang selfish of him.

If Steel Serpent hates Danny because of this, Danny has to realise that Steel Serpent is right.

In the comics Danny ended up liquidating his farther's company because it was corrupt beyond salvation, Danny could send those funds home to Asia. Setting up his dojo for disadvantaged youths could tie into that mentality too, but the dojo existing on the wrong side of the planet would be an issue.

RulerOfImagineverse Since: Sep, 2016
#63058: Oct 4th 2016 at 1:55:34 PM

[up]Outside of Immortal Iron Fist mini-series, Daniel is the type to declare Iron Fist belongs to K'un Lun only, which is why he doesn't mix it into his "normal" life. You won't see him using his powers without the mask for personal reasons.

On the other hand, in live action that would make for a far more interesting dilemma if K'un Lun inhbatians are too protective over who gets to use these powers outside the city. ... except Madame Gao is free though I am pretty sure she isn't from K'un Lun. Davos, the Steel Serpent is; a man who thought he was destined to become the next Iron Fist until Wendell Rand, Daniel's father, beat the shit out of him with no ambition while Daniel also did with a lot of ambition. Playing "native superpowers" for drama makes for better drama I think.

[up[up][up]]The problem with the Hand is they clearly exist for world building purposes, being rooted in an otherwordly force that is spreading across New York except the force hasn't reached any noticeable substance. As excepted by the source material, individually they aren't going to add anything but altogether yes there is some history and purpose. Said history and purpose has done JACK SHIT in live action = problem. Which is why they appear like evil ninjas. Yeah the evil ninjas in Ninja Gaiden and its rip offs are more interesting. Because they have enough history and purpose to write a few paragraphs on lol. Otherwise they end up like the Hand. Storm Troopers without the bigger picture.

Now why wasn't Matt surprised about killing the Hand, while he was with every other person he tried to prevent from dying? Because I think the bigger picture" is missing. The Hand aren't meant to be "human"; a demonic army. Something pure evil. Morals don't apply to them. However, that connection between my assumption and what Matt dealt with isn't met. There's a gap, which is why he was only shocked when he saw one Hand was a kid. It is like the directors forget to make Matt react more towards "THESE GUYS REALLY AREN'T NORMAL LIKE THE REST OF HUMANITY". However, being the only source of Asians was not a smart idea.

edited 4th Oct '16 2:12:06 PM by RulerOfImagineverse

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#63059: Oct 4th 2016 at 1:58:05 PM

Whenever someone talks about how something is "problematic", it strikes me over-analyzing. I understand I might come from a place of relative ignorance, but I feel like it's only problematic if you see it as problematic. Why not see it as not problematic? Can't ninjas just be ninjas?

edited 4th Oct '16 2:03:04 PM by FoxBoxKid

Make mine Marvel.
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#63060: Oct 4th 2016 at 1:58:23 PM

What is actually the expected role of the immortal weapons?

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63061: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:02:45 PM

Ninjas will be ninjas, in some genre stories, but not in the gritty meditation on morality that Daredevil had set itself up to be.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63062: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:03:51 PM

Ninja is a race in and of itself. They aren't Asian; they're Ninjas. Also, we even had a good Ninja character so Ninja representation was perfectly fine.

edited 4th Oct '16 2:05:30 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63063: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:06:41 PM

Ninjas can still have characterization. Nobu in Season 1 was a stereotype, but at least he had a personality, and defined goals. In Season 2, he's just a face, a talking head, who barely has any lines. Same with the kid who Elektra kills in Matt's apartment.

edited 4th Oct '16 2:08:38 PM by Unsung

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#63064: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:10:26 PM

To clarify this, Tobias didn't say said characters couldn't be allies, he said they would have to be antagonistic. Which is a different aspect of characterization entirely, and is also very true.

Danny is the protagonist and presumably focus character of his series. If a character is against him fulfilling or having his role as protagonist, then that aspect of their character is going to make them antagonistic - especially if its for something he can't control like his race - because it runs directly counter to his receiving The Call and his being able to pursue the plot. A character who is against him because he's a white guy in an Asian society is going to look hostile in the narrative in the narrative no matter what, because the story is from Danny's point of view.

Whether or not they help or support him in any other respect, whenever that particular plot point comes up that character is going to take on an antagonistic flavor, even if its only for those moments: and for the series to continue pushing his perspective and role as the one deserving of that slot as main character, that other character who is against him - no matter how valid their reasons - is going to have to get over it, or it'll be a hanging bit of characterization that goes nowhere.

At best they could end up The Lancer, but the plot is going to have to prove wrong their belief that the character is inherently unfit for the role, or prove them right at the expense of the characters' position in that role. And I doubt this series is going to not end with Danny ascending as Iron Fist.

Compare Mace Windu, who has legit concerns but is a highly antagonistic figure from the main characters' perspective, and yet is also one of the heroes' most powerful allies. The series explicitly sets this up in his last appearance, which would've had Anakin prove him wrong and finally earn his trust, only for Anakin to prove him right and ruin everything. Contrast Yoda and Obi Wan, who have concerns in the same story but get over them and take more open roles for the greater good. That Mace is, after three movies, ultimately proven right doesn't change the fact that - since the plot is from Anakin and Obi-Wan's point of view - he comes off as a Jerkass that can never be satisfied.

edited 4th Oct '16 2:16:30 PM by KnownUnknown

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#63065: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:12:17 PM

Why not see it as not problematic? Can't ninjas just be ninjas?

Unfortunately you can't separate stuff in fiction from real-world context and history. The stuff we see in stories doesn't exist in a vacuum.

I'm not exactly qualified to weigh in on season 2 of daredevil personally since I haven't seen it, but generally speaking I think it is impolite to tell someone of a certain group how to feel about representation of their group in a story if they are not in that group themselves, because it affects their relationship with the rest of the world and their sense of self, AND it affects how other people see them.

You don't have to blindly and immediately accept what they tell you (it's very dangerous to see one person's opinion as representative of a whole community), but you should at least put it under some consideration.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#63066: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:15:19 PM

It's still complaining a little bit early...shouldn't we discuss what Iron Fist does right and/or wrong when we have actually seen the show? And there is no telling if an Asian American actor in the role would have been the better choice since this would have come with its own set of problems.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#63067: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:16:19 PM

In a nutshell, I don't care that there were ninjas in it - I care that every single Asian character was a shallow, dehumanized racial stereotype and that the series is overly reliant on long-outdated racist tropes. Windleopard already linked the Nerds of Color articles on the subject, which outline the various problems nicely.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#63068: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:21:06 PM

Nobu in series 2 could have been replaced by a scary lamp for all his characterisation.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63069: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:22:41 PM

A scary ninja lamp.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#63070: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:23:29 PM

There is a painting of a ninja on the scary lamp yes.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#63071: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:25:48 PM

*Flees in terror from the terrifying, unstoppable nightmare that is Ninjalamp*

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63072: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:26:20 PM

A scary lamp which has learned how to slow its heartbeat and reduce its body temperature so that Matt can't detect it and he keeps stubbing his toe on it but he can't throw it out because it was a gift.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#63073: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:27:44 PM

In many ways that would have been preferable, because it's a lot harder to be racist towards a lamp than it is to be racist towards a person!

Besides, settling a lamp on fire legitimately doesn't count as a violation of your no-kill policy.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63074: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:30:41 PM

<Walks into thread>

.....Nope.

<Leaves thread>

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63075: Oct 4th 2016 at 2:35:05 PM

Speaking of the no-kill policy, Dare Devil Season 2's problematic elements regarding its surprisingly awful treatment of Asians is such a big deal that it tends to overshadow the fact that even if the show was perfect in its depictions...it would still be awful.

It's just that the other problem is easy to overlook due to how glaring the Magic Ninjas issue is. That problem being that the show is thematically a "Shaggy Dog" Story where Matt's no-kill policy is constantly presented as useless, preachy rhetoric.

Matt's hypocrisy about setting Nobu on fire is only the tip of the iceberg. The season also shows us that Wilson Fisk is still dangerous in prison, which means Matt's nonlethal defeat of him at the end of season 1 accomplished somewhere between f*ck and all. Meanwhile, it repeatedly resolves the issue of Matt being unwilling to kill the villains by having the Punisher and Stick kill them instead.

Matt's moral code even gets Elektra stabbed at one point, distracting her with an attempt to keep her from killing a mook. There are a lot of ways to handle a protagonist's unwillingness to kill his enemies. Having it constantly undermine his effectiveness to the point of uselessness and forcing him to rely on lethal antiheroes to solve all of his problems is, uh...certainly an interesting way to go about it.

I've never agreed with the logic that all superheroes should be like the Punisher, murdering all their foes immediately. But Dare Devil Season Two certainly seems to. It pays lip service to the idea of nonlethal resolutions, but basically just sends Matt to sit in a corner whining at everyone about it while including a bunch of killers in the cast who get shit done and solve everything.

edited 4th Oct '16 2:36:31 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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