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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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I just loved how in episode 5, Luke hardly bothered to hide from the public eye, opting instead to walk around in his "superhero costume" (basically nice business attire) and smack around mooks with minimal effort.
Still, I wouldn't mind seeing Iron Fist play out like a gory Shaw Bros epic in Harlem or Hell's Kitchen. (with RZA as The Cameo) BTW, is Gordon Liu currently busy?
edited 4th Oct '16 1:02:32 PM by nervmeister
I mentioned it elsewhere already, but what if they make the Culture Shock for Danny Rand the centre of the show? Not the culture shock when he ends up in Kun Lun, but when he comes back "home" and just doesn't fit in anymore. It could be a great parallel to explaining the plight of children who get adopted in a different country (usually from poorer countries to the Western ones) and end up not understanding their heritage told in a way that "the white guys" might understand what kind of loss and disfranchised feeling that is (well....if you consider not experiencing what American considering "culture" a loss.....
).
I don't think I'd have noticed any Unfortunate Implications in Daredevil season 2, Iron Fist, or Man-Ape from the Black Panther comics if I didn't see people mention them.
edited 4th Oct '16 1:38:39 PM by FoxBoxKid
Make mine Marvel.
Hence why people mention them.
In DD Season 2, the Hand are mostly just there as props— a bunch of Japanese mooks who exist solely to be mowed down by the white protagonists. It's insensitive as a portrayal of Asian culture just on the face of it, but also not a particularly sensitive portrayal of the value of human life in general in a show where not killing people has been a real sticking point all season. For that matter they're barely even a portrayal at all. You could have replaced the zombie ninjas with exploding robots out of the Power Rangers and it would have been about the same.
edited 4th Oct '16 1:43:01 PM by Unsung
I believe these will help explaining it
https://thenerdsofcolor.org/2016/04/05/racist-like-daredevil-with-this-one-weird-tip/
What I'd like to see from Iron Fist is Danny getting character development in which he realises taking a coveted cultural power and using it to sort out a personal issue on the other side of the planet was pretty dang selfish of him.
If Steel Serpent hates Danny because of this, Danny has to realise that Steel Serpent is right.
In the comics Danny ended up liquidating his farther's company because it was corrupt beyond salvation, Danny could send those funds home to Asia. Setting up his dojo for disadvantaged youths could tie into that mentality too, but the dojo existing on the wrong side of the planet would be an issue.
Outside of Immortal Iron Fist mini-series, Daniel is the type to declare Iron Fist belongs to K'un Lun only, which is why he doesn't mix it into his "normal" life. You won't see him using his powers without the mask for personal reasons.
On the other hand, in live action that would make for a far more interesting dilemma if K'un Lun inhbatians are too protective over who gets to use these powers outside the city. ... except Madame Gao is free though I am pretty sure she isn't from K'un Lun. Davos, the Steel Serpent is; a man who thought he was destined to become the next Iron Fist until Wendell Rand, Daniel's father, beat the shit out of him with no ambition while Daniel also did with a lot of ambition. Playing "native superpowers" for drama makes for better drama I think.
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]The problem with the Hand is they clearly exist for world building purposes, being rooted in an otherwordly force that is spreading across New York except the force hasn't reached any noticeable substance. As excepted by the source material, individually they aren't going to add anything but altogether yes there is some history and purpose. Said history and purpose has done JACK SHIT in live action = problem. Which is why they appear like evil ninjas. Yeah the evil ninjas in Ninja Gaiden and its rip offs are more interesting. Because they have enough history and purpose to write a few paragraphs on lol. Otherwise they end up like the Hand. Storm Troopers without the bigger picture.
Now why wasn't Matt surprised about killing the Hand, while he was with every other person he tried to prevent from dying? Because I think the bigger picture" is missing. The Hand aren't meant to be "human"; a demonic army. Something pure evil. Morals don't apply to them. However, that connection between my assumption and what Matt dealt with isn't met. There's a gap, which is why he was only shocked when he saw one Hand was a kid. It is like the directors forget to make Matt react more towards "THESE GUYS REALLY AREN'T NORMAL LIKE THE REST OF HUMANITY". However, being the only source of Asians was not a smart idea.
edited 4th Oct '16 2:12:06 PM by RulerOfImagineverse
Whenever someone talks about how something is "problematic", it strikes me over-analyzing. I understand I might come from a place of relative ignorance, but I feel like it's only problematic if you see it as problematic. Why not see it as not problematic? Can't ninjas just be ninjas?
edited 4th Oct '16 2:03:04 PM by FoxBoxKid
Make mine Marvel.To clarify this
, Tobias didn't say said characters couldn't be allies, he said they would have to be antagonistic. Which is a different aspect of characterization entirely, and is also very true.
Danny is the protagonist and presumably focus character of his series. If a character is against him fulfilling or having his role as protagonist, then that aspect of their character is going to make them antagonistic - especially if its for something he can't control like his race - because it runs directly counter to his receiving The Call and his being able to pursue the plot. A character who is against him because he's a white guy in an Asian society is going to look hostile in the narrative in the narrative no matter what, because the story is from Danny's point of view.
Whether or not they help or support him in any other respect, whenever that particular plot point comes up that character is going to take on an antagonistic flavor, even if its only for those moments: and for the series to continue pushing his perspective and role as the one deserving of that slot as main character, that other character who is against him - no matter how valid their reasons - is going to have to get over it, or it'll be a hanging bit of characterization that goes nowhere.
At best they could end up The Lancer, but the plot is going to have to prove wrong their belief that the character is inherently unfit for the role, or prove them right at the expense of the characters' position in that role. And I doubt this series is going to not end with Danny ascending as Iron Fist.
Compare Mace Windu, who has legit concerns but is a highly antagonistic figure from the main characters' perspective, and yet is also one of the heroes' most powerful allies. The series explicitly sets this up in his last appearance, which would've had Anakin prove him wrong and finally earn his trust, only for Anakin to prove him right and ruin everything. Contrast Yoda and Obi Wan, who have concerns in the same story but get over them and take more open roles for the greater good. That Mace is, after three movies, ultimately proven right doesn't change the fact that - since the plot is from Anakin and Obi-Wan's point of view - he comes off as a Jerkass that can never be satisfied.
edited 4th Oct '16 2:16:30 PM by KnownUnknown
Unfortunately you can't separate stuff in fiction from real-world context and history. The stuff we see in stories doesn't exist in a vacuum.
I'm not exactly qualified to weigh in on season 2 of daredevil personally since I haven't seen it, but generally speaking I think it is impolite to tell someone of a certain group how to feel about representation of their group in a story if they are not in that group themselves, because it affects their relationship with the rest of the world and their sense of self, AND it affects how other people see them.
You don't have to blindly and immediately accept what they tell you (it's very dangerous to see one person's opinion as representative of a whole community), but you should at least put it under some consideration.
In a nutshell, I don't care that there were ninjas in it - I care that every single Asian character was a shallow, dehumanized racial stereotype and that the series is overly reliant on long-outdated racist tropes. Windleopard already linked the Nerds of Color articles on the subject, which outline the various problems nicely.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."In many ways that would have been preferable, because it's a lot harder to be racist towards a lamp than it is to be racist towards a person!
Besides, settling a lamp on fire legitimately doesn't count as a violation of your no-kill policy.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."Speaking of the no-kill policy, Dare Devil Season 2's problematic elements regarding its surprisingly awful treatment of Asians is such a big deal that it tends to overshadow the fact that even if the show was perfect in its depictions...it would still be awful.
It's just that the other problem is easy to overlook due to how glaring the Magic Ninjas issue is. That problem being that the show is thematically a "Shaggy Dog" Story where Matt's no-kill policy is constantly presented as useless, preachy rhetoric.
Matt's hypocrisy about setting Nobu on fire is only the tip of the iceberg. The season also shows us that Wilson Fisk is still dangerous in prison, which means Matt's nonlethal defeat of him at the end of season 1 accomplished somewhere between f*ck and all. Meanwhile, it repeatedly resolves the issue of Matt being unwilling to kill the villains by having the Punisher and Stick kill them instead.
Matt's moral code even gets Elektra stabbed at one point, distracting her with an attempt to keep her from killing a mook. There are a lot of ways to handle a protagonist's unwillingness to kill his enemies. Having it constantly undermine his effectiveness to the point of uselessness and forcing him to rely on lethal antiheroes to solve all of his problems is, uh...certainly an interesting way to go about it.
I've never agreed with the logic that all superheroes should be like the Punisher, murdering all their foes immediately. But Dare Devil Season Two certainly seems to. It pays lip service to the idea of nonlethal resolutions, but basically just sends Matt to sit in a corner whining at everyone about it while including a bunch of killers in the cast who get shit done and solve everything.
edited 4th Oct '16 2:36:31 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

Stop trying to say that there are only two sides to this. I wanted an Asian-American Iron Fist, too, but now that we aren't getting one, I'm looking to see all the ways that the show can still be good. There are literally tons of ways that the show can subvert cliches and overturn the Mighty Whitey trope and still have a white protagonist.
So no, I disagree with you. A lot.