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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#63001: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:42:21 AM

And, knowing Marvel, they will notice the positive buzz and give these individuals there own series. They're not as stupid as some other studios (for the most part).

Marvel ran out of "Promises of future inclusivity" goodwill years ago.

Having him be the person who resents Danny for being a white Iron Fist and make him sympathetic, eventually showing him trying for redemption. That could definitely work.

You define using him as Author Surrogate for people upset about the Mighty Whitey role via making him a villain who eventually comes around, repents his frustrations, and learns to embrace the glory of the White Hero as "working"?

edited 4th Oct '16 10:43:52 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63002: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:46:20 AM

[up]On the feature-length film side of things, sure. But they may exhibit a different attitude towards their TV projects.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#63003: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:47:14 AM

They ran out of "different attitude on their TV projects" goodwill with Dare Devil Season Two. For Netflix, anyway.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is still going strong, but it's the bastard step-child that nobody at Marvel Studios actually wants, so its goodwill doesn't get spread around.

edited 4th Oct '16 10:47:53 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63004: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:48:59 AM

[up]That's only one strike so far. They still have a shot at turning this around.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#63005: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:49:42 AM

You define using him as Author Surrogate for people upset about the Mighty Whitey role via making him a villain who eventually comes around, repents his frustrations, and learns to embrace the glory of the White Hero as "working"?
He never embraces Iron Fist as a hero, he just decides to work for the betterment of K'un-L'un. And he doesn't "repent his frustrations," he only tries to redeem his villainous actions. There's a difference. Stop trying to twist things into other things.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#63006: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:51:37 AM

I don't even understand why Danny is being used anymore.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63007: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:53:49 AM

He never embraces Iron Fist as a hero, he just decides to work for the betterment of K'un-L'un. And he doesn't "repent his frustrations," he only tries to redeem his villainous actions. There's a difference. Stop trying to twist things into other things.

But that's exactly what using him as a mouthpiece for upset members of the audience would be communicating. As a rule, it is never in good taste to represent upset members of your audience as villains in your work unless you intend for it to be an insult. Like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. did to the "Stand With Ward" crowd.

Because no matter how sympathetic you make your Audience Surrogate villain, you're still presenting your upset audience from a perspective in which they are fundamentally wrong and must learn the error of their ways.

And that will always be a slap in the face.

edited 4th Oct '16 10:55:11 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#63008: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:56:13 AM

nervmeister, you're throwing darts at the board but they aren't sticking. Feige made the choice to cast a white man as the lead of a kung fu show. There's no real way to remove Mighty Whitey after that.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63009: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:08:37 AM

[up]Well is this show largely going to take place in Kun Lun, or in New York?

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#63010: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:12:53 AM

I...can't say that I'm terribly interested in Iron Fist, to be quite frank. If Marvel had racelifted him to actually be asian, then I'd be game, but since they didn't I have a hard time mustering up interest.

I'm in the exact same place. They had the chance to do something really special there, and they ignored it.

Marvel ran out of "Promises of future inclusivity" goodwill years ago.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who's no longer interested in hearing "they might get around to it someday."

Also, on the prospect of Yellow Peril being used in the show...they took a show about a superpowerd lawyer who fights crime and packed it with characters who could reasonably be mistaken for characters from a 1930s-era anti-Oriental propaganda film. I'm not holding out hope for them doing any better with a story that's already loaded to the gills with Orientalism.note 

And if they actually do try to insert some sort of surrogate for the #AAIronFist movement, then they'll have found a way to actually turn the whole thing into an active insult.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63011: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:16:24 AM

Tropes Are Not Bad and Tropes Are Tools. Write Danny as fully aware of the Mighty Whitey trope, have him undergo racial discrimination from some minor Asian characters, and make how he's perceived as a white guy as a martial arts master among Asian characters as an integral part of his character struggles.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63012: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:18:49 AM

[up]So now white people are more self-aware of their own flaws than asian people are, huh? HUH? -glare- ......tongue

edited 4th Oct '16 11:20:22 AM by nervmeister

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#63013: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:21:28 AM

Glad to see I'm not the only one who's no longer interested in hearing "they might get around to it someday."

For me, the point at which I was officially done hearing empty promises was when they made an Ant Man movie instead of a Black Widow solo film and proceeded to make the marginalization of the film's lead female into a f*cking plot point before ending it with Hank going,"Yeah, okay, this was another White Guy movie. MY BAD. I'm willing to admit I was wrong now that I've already gotten what I wanted. But I got you a consolation prize: more promises!"

Tropes Are Not Bad and Tropes Are Tools. Write Danny as fully aware of the Mighty Whitey trope, have him undergo racial discrimination from some minor Asian characters, and make how he's perceived as a white guy as a martial arts master among Asian characters as an integral part of his character struggles.

See, that still has the problem of making the hurt, disenfranchised minority into an antagonistic force. Because in that setup, we're meant to sympathize with Danny and feel bad for him for being picked on by those mean Asians.

I repeat: there is not a way to fix a Mighty Whitey setup so long as Mighty Whitey continues to be in effect. The only way to fix White Danny is to not have White Danny be a thing.

edited 4th Oct '16 11:22:18 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#63014: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:22:08 AM

[up][up] You're not taking this very seriously.

edited 4th Oct '16 11:22:21 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
RulerOfImagineverse Since: Sep, 2016
#63015: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:22:53 AM

"I don't even understand why Danny is being used anymore."

Because Daniel is the primary Iron Fist of Earth 616 who still hasn't been given a successor. He proudly will live out being K‘un Lun's immortal weapon till a writer no longer needs any use of him. Currently he is back to Herero's For Higher with Luke. The latest he tried to train Hope in K-un Lun.

In live action, under Earth 1,9999's context (MCU), you can't dive into the origins of the Iron Fist mythos without touching upon the Rand family's youngest son or according to Donald Campell, Tuan's grandchild, which makes him the first son of the (almost Iron Fist) Wendell Rand. Therefore he inherited the title though this would be kept hidden from his knowledge as speculated by Donald.

However, depending on what comicbook the directors are using, the original and Immortal Weapon series and anything after the latter are vastly different. For example the Iron Fist mini-series confirms there have been countless of K'un-L'un natives who born the "dragon tattoo" that grants the power of Iron Fist. These "special" natives date back to the dawn of time, being ancient and powerful. There have been eleven during the mini-series, including one female.

That notion is different from previous Iron Fist stories where Daniel is the first to obtain Shou-Lao the Undying's abilities. When Daniel's father became Iron Fist it upset Davos. When Daniel's father etnered K-un Lun it really upset Davos. That automatically put Daneil in an odd place when his father took his family back there years later. Among a select few unrelated to Davos, Daniel and his family is liked, but those like Davos oh boy. Lei Kung accepted and appreciated Daniel because he had the ambition to become Iron Fist. His motivation was stronger than his father, the American who had a family with very little reason to become anything in K'un Lun.

Btw... before people start saying anything about Asians I just want to clarify K‘un-Lun is a stronghold of a colony of human-like aliens. K‘un-Lun's inhabitants gave rise to legends about immortal tattooist monks. Unlike actual monks or other spiritual people, they don't consider themselves like the rest of human society. In live action they might not be aliens but "magical" (que: Dr. Strange's Kamar-Taj) people over indulged in their fantastical culture that they now see a separation between K'un Lun and every other place found on Earth. They might be aliens, whom some of forget about their past because they moved into our society. In either case, they aren't based on any real Asian culture. The only reason Asian sounding names and terminology, mainly Chinese, are used is because of the mysticism associated with the far east. Iron Fist was created a few years after the Hippie phase Dr. Strange dived straight into.

Point is. K‘un-Lun = mumbo jumbo stuff for Asians for a group of people who look Asian but never have been connected culturally, historically, or blah-blah to any known hemisphere in Asian from our reality.

edited 4th Oct '16 12:16:46 PM by RulerOfImagineverse

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#63016: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:23:47 AM

@Pushover Media Critic: Some tropes pretty much are inherently bad, and Mighty Whitey is one of them. The only way to successfully use tropes like that is by heavily deconstructing or subverting them...which would require a level of self-awareness that I would be very surprised to see from a show like this.

Also, I'd rather not have them deal with the anti-Asian nature of Iron Fist by having the Asian people be the ones who have to get over their prejudice? Obviously Asian people can be pretty racist, but "people of color are the real racists" is really not a message that this show needs, when there's already been public uproar over the way the (very white) MCU treats Asian people.

I don't want the show's acknowledgement of Asians to be just "see, look at this poor rich white guy getting picked on by all those mean ol' Asians." Actually making the minorities into an antagonist force who are there to bully the privileged guy would only make things worse.

@Tobias Drake: Yeah, Mighty Whitey is a thing we really need to just let go of, unless it's a thing we're actively lambasting or deconstructing.

edited 4th Oct '16 11:24:34 AM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63017: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:25:53 AM

[up][up][up][up]No, don't be dumb. Only a few Asian people would be antagonistic towards him. Others would be his friends, companions, peers, and mentors.

edited 4th Oct '16 11:26:17 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#63018: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:31:22 AM

[up][up][up][up]I prefer to avoid getting heated about anything. It helps keep things in perspective. Danny may inevitably end up being a Mighty Whitey. It's ridiculous, however, to say that alone is inevitably going to make Asian viewers feel insignificant.

edited 4th Oct '16 11:31:52 AM by nervmeister

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#63019: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:31:43 AM

But that's exactly what using him as a mouthpiece for upset members of the audience would be communicating.
I never said to use him as a mouthpiece, I said to have him resent a white Iron Fist. There could be plenty of other people to use as mouthpieces — hell, I can see them using Colleen Wing as a mouthpiece or Lei-Kung the Thunderer or even Shang-Chi. None of them are villains at all.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#63020: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:35:19 AM

Well is this show largely going to take place in Kun Lun, or in New York?
Presumably mostly in New York after his origin story, although we could get flashbacks. And depending on when/if/how quickly Danny gains back control of the Rand Corporation, there's room for jetsetting around the world in a way that wouldn't have made sense for the other Defenders.

It might be interesting for them to play up Danny's outsider status wherever he goes. Raised in K'un-L'un but not born there, coming back to the States to a life of wealth he never expected to get back. Illustrate privilege from the perspective of one who did not always have it, even if he was still born into it.

And while the Mighty Whitey implications are going to be there no matter what, I do think engaging with them head-on can make a difference. Martial arts is a skill anyone can learn. Iron Fist doesn't need to be the most gifted student or the Chosen One to be the hero of the show. He doesn't need to turn around and teach his mentors something they've never seen before to be impressive. He can master the technique of the Iron Fist, perhaps even being one of the few who could, and still have other shortcomings and a lot more to learn.

Still problematic, but it doesn't have to ruin the series.

edited 4th Oct '16 11:53:27 AM by Unsung

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#63021: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:37:24 AM

No, don't be dumb. Only a few Asian people would be antagonistic towards him. Others would be his friends, companions, peers, and mentors

In what way is that at all relevant to the issue of responding to criticism from Asian-Americans about Danny's Mighty Whitey status by depicting Asian people in-universe antagonizing the Mighty Whitey for his role?

I never said to use him as a mouthpiece, I said to have him resent a white Iron Fist. There could be plenty of other people to use as mouthpieces — hell, I can see them using Colleen Wing as a mouthpiece or Lei-Kung the Thunderer or even Shang-Chi. None of them are villains at all.

...no, they couldn't. A character cannot simultaneously be a mouthpiece for the criticism of Danny's Mighty Whitey status AND not antagonistic towards him in the slightest over it. That's like saying that Wong is going to be a mouthpiece for people upset about the Tibetan erasure via being Dr. Strange's close, personal companion and supporting him in everything he does.

You guys are belligerently not getting this and I'm starting to smell some shifting goalposts.

edited 4th Oct '16 11:37:49 AM by TobiasDrake

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63022: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:41:07 AM

Show that getting mad at Danny because of his race is racist towards him and makes him feel bad about himself from an in-universe perspective. He can't help that the producers insisted he be white.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#63023: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:50:31 AM

Which brings us right back to, "We're supposed to be sympathetic towards poor, innocent White Danny for being picked on by those mean, nasty Asians."

Again: portraying the upset, disenfranchised minority as antagonistic to the hero is an insult to everyone who feels hurt by the Mighty Whitey trope.

edited 4th Oct '16 11:51:44 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#63024: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:56:52 AM

I don't really have anything to add to or detract from this argument, but I do have one question I'm genuinely curious about: If some of you are tired of the empty promises and problematic tropes and other mentioned stuff, why are you still here instead of just abandoning the MCU franchise as a lost cause?

That's not a "like it or get out" rhetorical question, it's legit curiosity on my part. When a franchise disappoints me for whatever reason and shows no intent of changing, I simply lose interest and leave.

edited 4th Oct '16 11:58:04 AM by Anomalocaris20

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#63025: Oct 4th 2016 at 11:56:58 AM

I just wanna watch Iron Fist and see if it'll be good...

edited 4th Oct '16 11:57:21 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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