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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62976: Oct 4th 2016 at 3:58:32 AM

[up] Yeah, though I initially missed the name and just suspected that she would be the teacher.

Not lying here, my first thought when Claire mentioned the great Lawyer she knows was "wait, she hasn't meet Hogarth yet" and then I remembered Foggy before realizing that she is most likely talking about Matt.

edited 4th Oct '16 3:59:59 AM by Swanpride

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#62978: Oct 4th 2016 at 7:35:02 AM

[up]Hoo boy. Can they capture lightning in a bottle 5 times in a row?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62979: Oct 4th 2016 at 7:46:38 AM

Depends on whether you define Dare Devil's second season as lightning in a bottle. That bottle had some cracks in it and a lot of people got burned as a result.

They're going to need to put a lot of effort into Iron Fist to overcome the significant problems embedded in its premise, which are especially visible to the audience they've cultivated with Jessica Jones and Luke Cage.

edited 4th Oct '16 7:48:17 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#62980: Oct 4th 2016 at 7:54:28 AM

[up]Adapting the Hand was bound to be something of a "minefield". Though they could've at least made the effort to humanize the organization's leaders more, if not their rank-and-file ninja mooks.

edited 4th Oct '16 7:57:09 AM by nervmeister

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62981: Oct 4th 2016 at 7:55:18 AM

So is Danny Rand. Difference is, we still got half a season where we could ignore The Hand. They weren't the main characters.

edited 4th Oct '16 7:55:58 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#62982: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:01:54 AM

[up]If we get to see asian actors who play prominent characters like Lei Kung the Thunderer, Shang Chi, and Steel Serpent put on great 3D performances alongside Rand, that could significantly help.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:02:28 AM by nervmeister

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#62983: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:06:52 AM

Iron Fist's arch-enemy, the Steel Serpent, is also a bonafide Anti-Villain (he's a more redeemable version of Tai Lung basically) Tragic Villain who is Asian, and given the amount of praise Netflix villains have gotten, that might help.

He also has a Heel–Face Turn in the most praised and most famous Iron Fist comic arc in the character's history (though later writers reverted that), so they might do the same here.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#62984: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:11:55 AM

[up]Hm. Some say that Master Khan is Rand's arch nemesis, strangely enough.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#62985: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:20:06 AM

Well it is always possible to have more than one archenemy. Spider-Man for example is often said to have several, but most famously both Doctor Octopus and Venom tend to be given the title of "Spider-Man's archenemy".

Master Khan might be the Doc Ock of this analogy whilst Steel Serpent is the Venom.

I do think Steel Serpent kind of took over as his archfoe though. For a brief example, if you search "Iron Fist's arch enemy" on google, most results are for Steel Serpent.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:21:06 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#62986: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:22:29 AM

[up]Wait. Wait. Wait. Isn't Norman Osborn the #1 arch nemesis of Spidey? It's arguably much more personal between Spidey and him than the other two.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:28:54 AM by nervmeister

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#62987: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:25:09 AM

He'd be the other guy given the title of Spider-Man's arch-enemy.

Like I said, Spider-Man has more arch-enemies than he has love interests. You can't throw a brick in his rogues gallery without hitting an archenemy.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:26:05 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62988: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:26:16 AM

Most major Superheroes have multiple archenemies. Spidey being the most famous, with Goblin, Ock and Venom each vying for the role depending on what time period you're reading.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#62989: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:33:53 AM

[up]But only one can say he killed Gwen Stacy.......and knocked her up. And he's been more successful at making Peter fly into a murderous rage time and again.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62990: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:40:07 AM

The Netflix shows are great, but they all (perhaps with the notable exception of Jessica Jones) have one big problem: They all work of the assumption that there has to be some big physical fight in the end. In Daredevil season 1 Fisk bombing the neighbourhood and luring Daredevil into a trap was way more dramatic than his actual take down, in season 2 the arc with the Punisher was great but the Hand felt tacked on and only there to ensure that there could be enough fight scenes (which got boring pretty fast, the talk with Punisher on the rooftop was better than any of the fights) and in Luke Cage...well, those who have seen the whole show will know what I mean.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62991: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:52:47 AM

[up][up] That doesn't mean other characters aren't his archenemies either. Consider for example the fact that Superior Spider Man is far more major a storyline and personally impactful on Peter's life than anything Goblin has done lately. Different time periods and writers have play up different characters as archenemies.

This is especially true of Spider Man, who has always had something of a "chain" of his most major enemies before settling on a Big Three (well, Big Two now - I don't think Eddie's as prominent as he used to be).

edited 4th Oct '16 9:53:37 AM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62992: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:52:58 AM

If we get to see asian actors who play prominent characters like Lei Kung the Thunderer, Shang Chi, and Steel Serpent put on great 3D performances alongside Rand, that could significantly help.

It could also significantly hurt, because it only enhances the problem inherent in the Mighty Whitey setup. The characters you describe are essentially Danny's mentor, his sidekick, and his archnemesis. All key roles for supporting Mighty Whitey on his journey to master Asia.

The problem with Mighty Whitey isn't that Asians aren't allowed to exist. That's an issue in the MCU in general, mind you, but with the Mighty Whitey setup, the problem is that they aren't allowed to be leads in stories about them and their culture.

Having amazing actors playing amazing characters in this context is better than not having them at all, but it still leaves the problem of, "Look at these great Asian actors in roles where they work diligently to help Danny to master their culture, strike down the Yellow Peril, and prove that the White Man is truly the greatest Asian of all."

Indeed, the better and more well-received they and their characters are, the more people are going to ask, "Why can't this just be THEIR story? Why does this have to be about some white guy?"

edited 4th Oct '16 9:54:56 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62993: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:55:07 AM

Instead of being a bit character in Danny's story, I'd really rather Shiang Chi get his own. I've always thought his character was very interesting.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62994: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:57:30 AM

Agreed.

Ultimately, the issue here is that Mighty Whitey is a setup where no matter how well you try to execute it, it can never fix the glaring flaw, because the fundamental problem with the trope is that it exists. With this kind of story design, the only way to win is not to play.

edited 4th Oct '16 9:58:02 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#62995: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:02:47 AM

[up][up][up]Again, Danny being the "black sheep" of the Immortal Weapons doesn't mean he'll automatically be the best in terms of power/skill. The only thing you really have against him is that he's the viewpoint character (see The Forbidden Kingdom).

Indeed, the better and more well-received they and their characters are, the more people are going to ask, "Why can't this just be THEIR story? Why does this have to be about some white guy?"
And, knowing Marvel, they will notice the positive buzz and give these individuals there own series. They're not as stupid as some other studios (for the most part).

edited 4th Oct '16 10:07:22 AM by nervmeister

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#62996: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:26:18 AM

I don't think it matters whether he's necessarily the best - it's that he's the protagonist, and that means that he's the one who'll defeat the Big Bad, unless you want to have someone else do it, which would make one wonder why they weren't the one who was the protagonist.

edited 4th Oct '16 10:27:41 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62997: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:26:19 AM

Him being the most important character in all of their stories is the entire point, actually. Their relative power levels don't necessarily come into it.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62998: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:30:43 AM

Mighty Whitey is something that's as much about narrative structure and focus as it is about in-universe levels of comparative power or competence. The main character in a story is the one to whom is ascribed the highest level of focus, development, exposure, and general-purpose importance. And by pure coincidence, they also tend to be the only white person in the entire country.

Even if he isn't demonstrated to be more powerful than the Asian practitioners (and there's a decent chance that'll happen in some capacity anyway), then we're faced with the problem of the boring rich white guy who's far less competent than the Asian people...still being deemed more worthy of being the main character than the Asian people are.

So as Tobias says, even if they do load the coast with awesome, interesting Asian characters, and even if they do prove themselves more kickass than Danny, then that'll just exacerbate the problem in many respects. "This character is more interesting, more complex, more competent, more representative of the world we live in, and less appropriative...so why aren't they the main character instead of that one guy from Game of Thrones?"

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#62999: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:36:56 AM

I don't think it matters whether he's necessarily the best - it's that he's the protagonist, and that means that he's the one who'll defeat the Big Bad, unless you want to have someone else do it, which would make one wonder why they weren't the one who was the protagonist.

A character being the protagonist doesn't necessarily mean they have to defeat the Big Bad (they can have some other conflict with someone closer to their power level be where the emotional stakes are), but otherwise I agree with what everyone else has been saying.

I...can't say that I'm terribly interested in Iron Fist, to be quite frank. If Marvel had racelifted him to actually be asian, then I'd be game, but since they didn't I have a hard time mustering up interest.

edited 4th Oct '16 10:37:15 AM by Draghinazzo

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#63000: Oct 4th 2016 at 10:41:54 AM

"Look at these great Asian actors in roles where they work diligently to help Danny to master their culture, strike down the Yellow Peril, and prove that the White Man is truly the greatest Asian of all."
While I think you have a point, I also think that you are presuming a lot — especially the villain being a Yellow Peril. From the cast list, it looks like the villains (at least for the first half) are Harold Meachum (who was Danny's father's business partner and responsible for his death) and his children, Joy and Ward Meachum. All of whom are white.

Now, if we are introduced to the Steel Serpent later and he becomes the Big Bad, that might be problematic. But in the comics, the Steel Serpent wavered back and forth as a villain and anti-villain, eventually trying to redeem himself, which could really work in this context. Having him be the person who resents Danny for being a white Iron Fist and make him sympathetic, eventually showing him trying for redemption. That could definitely work.

Of course, I'm not really sure what other villains Iron Fist could have. Bushmaster? Constrictor? I guess Master Khan could work, since he's not technically Asian either, but he is an eldritch being that wants blood sacrifices. As long as they redesign him, I guess he could work.


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