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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#62801: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:44:24 PM

Whoa.

(Considered writing "She Hulk is in the MCU now" but that would be cruel.)

edited 28th Sep '16 6:45:05 PM by Tuckerscreator

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#62802: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:44:39 PM

[up][up]...

Why? This movie already has a few potential pitfalls. Why use him of all characters?

edited 28th Sep '16 6:46:43 PM by Kostya

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62803: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:46:18 PM

[up][up] Ya know, I would not be at all averse to seeing Claire get herself some powers.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#62804: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:46:37 PM

Ape-Man. In a Black Panther movie.

Ape-Man. In a movie starring a African superhero.

APE. MAN.

Someone please explain to me that Ape-Man isn't racist or has racist implications. Oh, lord, please.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62805: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:47:38 PM

...That is legitimately shocking. Huh.

I imagine he will be heavily altered for the film then, just to avoid the obvious elephant (or gorilla) in the room.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62806: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:48:42 PM

How did they write him in the Avengers cartoon?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62807: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:49:20 PM

I'm not that familiar with Black Panther adversaries, so I don't know much about Man-Ape. But a black person being an ape-themed supervillain is...not good? Not good at all.

But. The main hero is also African. If it sounds bad as it is, imagine how it would be if the hero was yet another white guy. White guy vs. the evil black ape-man.

If they're smart, they'll never use the words "man-ape" in the entire movie and just have him be M'Baku.

edited 28th Sep '16 6:49:30 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#62808: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:49:35 PM

[up][up][up]I feel like that's a bit hard to avoid unless they flat out avoid calling him Man-Ape.

edit: I don't exactly think it's wrong to have a character called Man-Ape. Making that guy a black man is a problem though.

edit 2: How many villains are we going to have? Doesn't this bring us up to three?

edited 28th Sep '16 6:51:47 PM by Kostya

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62809: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:52:01 PM

Superhero movies use Comic-Book Movies Don't Use Codenames anyway. I imagine they are gonna heavily alter the character.

If they were willing to change just about everything about the Mandarin and Wong I cannot possibly see them having a black dude who dresses up like a monkey and screeches and hollers like one.

[up]2 so far. Surprisingly they've yet to confirm Andy Serkis is returning. Though Klaw might be superfluous since they gave his most important character accomplishment to Zemo.

edited 28th Sep '16 6:54:21 PM by comicwriter

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62810: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:52:57 PM

I mean, Iron Man didn't have Stane suddenly refer to himself as the Iron Monger, they only had him say the phrase as a throwaway line. They did something similar with the Abomination in The Incredible Hulk. They should easily be able to do the same thing with this by having one line of dialogue to serve as a throwaway.

Also, Bluefish, I just posted that link in the Film Representation thread, just a heads up.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#62811: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:55:46 PM

The problem is that even if he doesn't get called Man-Ape he's still a black guy running around in a gorilla suit. I guess they could take away the suit but at that point why bother using him?

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62812: Sep 28th 2016 at 6:58:17 PM

For the love of god, Black Panther, don't put a black man in a gorilla suit. Completely reinvent the character if you have to, but don't do that.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#62813: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:00:59 PM

As a foil to T'Challa maybe?

In the EMH cartoon, M'Batu was a traditionalist who wanted to go back to the old ways and thought vibranium corrupted Wakanda. Also, he teamed up with Klaw to murder T'Chaka in the thunderdome.

In the comics, he was T'Challa's most trusted friend and ran the country for him when T'Challa was off with the Avengers. But he decided to take over the country, showing T'Challa was a bad judge of character, and to do this he ate the forbidden white ape or something.

He's a thorny character to use, no doubt about that.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62814: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:01:22 PM

I'll probably be a different flavor of the panther suit instead of a literal gorilla skin.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62815: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:02:36 PM

Well he could be used as an ally of Killmonger then. Maybe modernize him into a more modern day type of cult leader? The gorilla aspect is gonna be really problematic, though.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#62816: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:02:56 PM

One potentially tone-deaf black character versus many more who aren't. Yep. Movie completely ruined. Coogler better get started on that public apology.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#62817: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:04:33 PM

[up][up][up]Even if it's just a Black Panther suit with a Gorilla motif instead of a Panther one it's still going to cause issues.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62818: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:05:34 PM

[up][up][up]They did recently try to do modernized take on the gorilla cult concept.

[up][up]Relax. Nobody said it's ruined, just that it'd be awkward if not handled well.

edited 28th Sep '16 7:05:53 PM by comicwriter

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62819: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:05:35 PM

Then turn him into a politician with no ape connections.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#62820: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:06:18 PM

I don't think Ryan Coogler would of opted to use the character if he didn't have a plan to use him that would avoid the potential unfortunate implications that come with it. And I certainly can't imagine Kevin Feige forcing the issue since the movie already has a main villain in Killmonger.

The last time the topic of M’Baku appearing in the MCU came up, someone came up with a great way to acknowledge the character's origin. Have him brag about killing and skinning a white gorilla in hand-to-hand combat (possibly with his bare hands or perhaps a weapon most sane people would consider very inadequate for gorilla-fighting). And we do see the white gorilla skin on display in his home or office, but he never actually wears the thing.

edited 28th Sep '16 7:07:41 PM by Falrinn

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62821: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:06:24 PM

@nervmeister: Keep on beating that strawman.

@Kostya: Yeah, a black guy having an ape motif at all is preeeetty bad. Which is why I think their best shot is to just ditch the ape thing altogether. Just get rid of it, it honestly wouldn't be that big of a deal. Just have him be a bad guy named M'Baku, he can have powers or whatever. Maybe he can tell a scary anecdote about a gorilla as something of a Mythology Gag.

[up] Exactly, something like that. He can have something to do with gorillas, as part of his backstory or whatever, but they can do it without taking it to the point of outright ape motif.

edited 28th Sep '16 7:07:04 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#62822: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:07:01 PM

[up][up][up][up]That suit doesn't look that bad since it's more like power armor. Still seems like a risky thing to do.

edit: If they wanted a former friend turned evil why not just use White Wolf?

edited 28th Sep '16 7:09:26 PM by Kostya

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#62823: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:09:19 PM

Out of all Black Panther's villains, Man-Ape (besides Ulysses Klaw) is his best, potential-wise. Because, y'see, Black Panther represents modernity, he wants his country to evolve, abandon dogmatic and harmful traditions, modernize, face the current world with openness whilst retaining their culture.

Ape-Man is his flipside, he's the fierce traditionalist who wants everything to go back to the good and ol' days of tribal warfare where innocents were slaughtered because they weren't strong enough.

They represent two opposite facets of modern-day Africa, the progressive one trying to make Africa evolve into a better place and the traditionalist unwilling to change his archaic, brutal ways. That is a much more interesting conflict (potentially, most comics don't realize the full extent of the conflict) than he has with his most of his gallery, excepting Klaw (the "western colonialism" analogue). Man-Ape is even a hardcore religious fundamentalist, enhancing the allegory with modern-day Africa.

Now, the idea of him being a Man-Ape is potentially a case of Unfortunate Implications when seen from a distance but, well, it's Black Panther. Animal Theme Naming is a running thing: White Wolf, White Tiger, Salamander K'ruel, Sons of the Serpent, Dragon Circle, Cockroach Hamilton, the list goes on. He has a lot of animal-themed supporting characters. One of them was bound to be a gorilla.

The purpose of Ape-Man being well, an ape, is even clearer when you remember Black Panther is a very acrobatic sort. So they made a Evil Counterpart to Panther (all of his Evil Counterparts being named after animals) that is a flipside to his style being a Mighty Glacier.

But I do agree that they don't need to make him actually wear a gorilla skin. They could just keep him with a variation of the Panther costumed themed around apes.

edited 28th Sep '16 7:11:53 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#62824: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:10:33 PM

[up]Animal theme naming is fine but ape in particular has a pretty bad history when it comes to black people.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62825: Sep 28th 2016 at 7:10:54 PM

My take on the situation is currently this: yeah, there's a lot of pitfalls there they could find themselves falling into - but at the same time, this task is honestly probably in the best possible hands. If anybody can do this in a non-offensive way, it's black writers who are well-versed in black representation problems through direct experience.

If anybody can do it, Coogler can, basically. Imagine if it were C. Robert Cargill on the job, he would just mutter something about SJWs and then do whatever the hell he wanted without a thought for the consequences.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

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