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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
edited 28th Sep '16 12:56:14 PM by nervmeister
The Hydra cell that they took the staff back from was also working on an AI project, I think.
Another little clue that Ultron was something, some fail safe in the Mind Stone.
The movie doesn't do a super great awesome job of connecting the points so I think we're just supposed to take Tony's word that this is totes not his fault swearsies.
But the important thing is that the movie was a minute shorter than the first Avengers, right?
Forever liveblogging the Avengers"I feel like they did a good job of adapting Zemo's masterful intelligence and manipulative savvy"
I disagree a little it, I feel that Zemo got a little bit too lucky with his plan, thanks airport fight the avenger pretty much cripple themselves Vision cripple warmachine, a this point Zemo should just said "damn, you are idiots"
Anyway, with Ultron....well is hard to said, on one side it could see avenger creating a security program to protect the world for the regular shit is throw out, on the other it could be read as them escalating matter and deciding world need pretty metal bar around so they dont harm themselves....
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"![]()
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Not exactly since a birth is a natural process which people have evoked for decades. It would be more like holding someone responsible for the result of an experiment which goes wrong, especially when said person didn't implement the necessarily safety protocols. Though I guess Tony could argue that Jarvis should have been enough of a protection against Ultron.
edited 28th Sep '16 12:59:57 PM by Swanpride
Neither Tony's original vision for Ultron nor the Avengers as a whole have ever had "Make all the worlds stop fighting and punish any future conflicts with annihilation" as part of their M.O. The purpose of Ultron was to be "a suit of armor around the world". A "bouncer" that would prevent further alien attacks.
Essentially, Ultron was supposed to be a replacement for the Avengers. A sentry facing ever-outwards, watchful for the return of the Chitauri or some other horror from beyond the stars. Because that was the Avengers' purpose, before Cap widened their scope to fight mundane terrorists.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I'm not so sure that holds because there's a stronger connection with Tony to Ultron's behavior than Hitler's mother to her son. Ultron was explicitly built to be a world peacekeeping droid, Klara Hitler wasn't grooming her son to become Germany's leader. Ultron has behaviors and tendencies directly lifted from Tony, something Klaue and Wanda both point out, whether as parents don't copy-paste transfer their minds to their children.
edited 28th Sep '16 1:05:17 PM by Tuckerscreator
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Said "security program" (and experiment) graduated into full blown intelligent, self-aware consciousness thanks to the Mind Stone acting on its own in what should've been a mere diagnostic test. Should I blame Rhodey's crippling on Tony as well? He made Jarvis (one of Vision's "components") after all.
edited 28th Sep '16 1:09:59 PM by nervmeister
Another little clue that Ultron was something, some fail safe in the Mind Stone.
Indeed. We even see failed robot shells in the base. When Ultron repurposes the place to mass-produce his drones, he's using the tech Strucker was using to try and create him. It's heavily indicated that the scepter AI was manipulating Strucker into building it a body before it found a much better opportunity in Stark.
Tony's best defense is that he was under the influence of two separate mind-altering effects when he came up with the idea of Ultron: Scarlet Witch's mindf*ckery and the scepter's previously established ability to influence people's mental and emotional states. The scepter AI used him to build it a body, played dead through 80 failed trials, and then pushed the program through the second his back was turned.
edited 28th Sep '16 1:07:51 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Makes sense, though I'm not sure I picture Tony "privatized world peace" Stark being content with just leaving the Legion in stasis until aliens return. There's a reason why when Ultron was told he was to bring "peace in our time", he started looking at the problems of the world rather than defense from alien ones.
edited 28th Sep '16 1:09:31 PM by Tuckerscreator
I forgot about the Armour around the world statement.
But as
points out, this make sense as well.
More proof Tony Stark is still the Angel of Death.
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That wasn't Tony issuing a terminally vague "prime directive" to Ultron. He was making a toast to his friends when he said it!
It'd be like me laughing at a funny joke of yours and going, "Oh, you 'kill' me!", only for the robot I built in my basement while I was high to overhear it, come upstairs and pull my heart out through my asshole.
edited 28th Sep '16 1:16:12 PM by nervmeister
Actually, I think he said that one in private when he and Banner were first starting the project.
One Strip! One Strip!Yeah. Ultron misconstrued "Peace in our time". He's not the first Marvel character to run in entirely the wrong direction with an innocuous sentiment.
- John Garrett: You remember that speech you gave us, Nick, about how one man can accomplish anything once he realizes he can be something bigger? Well, now I am.
- Nick Fury: A PART. A PART of something bigger.
- John Garrett: Is that how it went?
- Phil Coulson: Not a great listener.
- Nick Fury: If you told me this whole Hydra path thing you took is because you misheard my damn "One man" speech....
"Should I blame Rhodey's crippling on Tony as well? He made Jarvis (one of Vision's "components") after all."
Well, vision is pretty much Tony son...so yeah, blame him
Actually if you think about it, Wanda hate Tony stark, so she alies with pretty much Tony stark jr to take his "father" and after all is done in the next movie she get a ship tease with Vision, the other Stark Jr so to speak.
I think a this point Wanda also need therapy
Exactly what Ultron was is extremely vague, as the circumstances and the dialogue surrounding his birth imply a ton of different things. The stinger that implies that it was all part of Thanos' plan the whole time despite how little sense that makes and how little it resonates with the rest of the plot doesn't make things much better.
edited 28th Sep '16 2:59:00 PM by KnownUnknown
It makes perfect sense. In fact, it makes so much sense that it actually fixes a few issues.
- Establishing that the Mind Gem is in the scepter means that Thanos is the dumbest f*ck in the Marvel Universe because he gave the Mind Gem to Loki. The Scepter AI corrects this by asserting that the Gem's housing has a conscious will of its own and is capable of acting independently of or even against Loki if necessary.
- Which in turn explains the scene of everyone losing their shit on the Helicarrier due to being in its presence. How can it still be working against the Avengers without Loki to wield it? Because it's alive.
- And because it's alive, it means not only was there nothing to fear from giving the Mind Gem to Loki, but it also means that Thanos sent him with a backup plan. From the moment Loki was defeated, the scepter has been continuing to work towards Thanos's ends.
This fixes pretty much every problem in what, for years, was hinted to be the stupidest plot twist Marvel has ever come up with.
edited 28th Sep '16 3:23:46 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.That would make sense if Ultron was working for Thanos' ends, or was even aware of Thanos' existence, but not only does he give no indication that he was, he certainly had entirely incongruous goals to Thanos' own. The only way that set-up really works - and we're getting into entirely conjectural suppositions at this point - is if Ultron was intended to be the Gollum to Thanos' Sauron, a minion who didn't know he was a minion, after the same things the Big Bad was out of obsessions that would bring them closer to the Big Bad - but again, that's a Batman Gambit. It means Thanos is once again assuming everyone will act exactly as he wants to when left to their own devices, including the events that led to Ultron's creation in the first place (which required the twins to exist, character he had no reason to assume would come to be when giving Loki the scepter) and is one of those things that relies on the audience creating situations that allow it to make sense rather than it actually making sense on its own - there's a thin line between subtext and nothing.
What's more, if the Mind Stone had an intelligence in it in the first place, it would make sense for him to create it himself, rather than allow it to be put in the hands of his enemies and hope that it would lead to sequence of events that created a new threat that, somewhere down the line, would allow him to get his hands on all the stones - it's not much less idiotic than putting it in Loki's hands in the first place, it's just more complicated.
Or in short, from a Watsonian point of view Ultron being Thanos' creation just raises further questions and arguably makes him look like even more of a fool for squandering his resources.
But primarily, from a Doylist point of view it makes little sense from a plot and characterization standpoint, as it invalidates a lot of both the agency and complexity that the movie gives Ultron himself, and the responsibility that the movie puts on Stark's shoulders - just because he doesn't know Thanos is the one who did everything doesn't mean that the impact of his mistakes isn't cheapened for the audience. The movie puts a lot of dialogue and effort into making Ultron the result of the actions of the people it stars: Tony's attempts to integrate it into his systems (which did succeed, but only did so when he coincidentally wasn't paying attention) and his dark side being examined, Wanda realizing Ultron is just as much a product of her own hate as it is a result of Tony's obsessions, Ultron himself not knowing whether to protect or cull humanity because he can't reconcile protecting the planet with the actions of those around him - and ultimately deciding to wipe them out because he's bitter and vindictive that his vision can't come to pass, and of course all the contention it raises between the Avengers on the path to Civil War. All of that is on the characters themselves.
The stinger then goes "nope, Thanos did it," thus clashing with all that set-up and revealing several of the movie's character arcs to be at least partially lies: if only they knew, Tony and Cap would have no reason to fight. Tony wouldn't have a reason to feel guilty, leading into Civil War. Neither would Wanda, except for the bit with the Hulk. Ultron isn't evil because Tony's obsessions with doing the right thing himself went out of control, because as it tuns out he isn't an dark reflection of Tony after all, not truly. That's not why he's doing what he's doing.
Turns out he's just evil because Thanos did it. And you can do that with dialogue, or even with the way a storyline is presented, but doing so with character development is risky business: we might as well not have had that development in the first place and instead replaced it with Thanos foreshadowing.
Ultimately, it also means Ultron's plan was even less coherent than it seemed in the movie itself, and relies on the explanation that "Thanos did it" to explain that incoherence, which - as something external to the plot of the movie itself - is a bad idea from a writing standpoint. It is the characterization equivalent of explaining loose plot issues by saying A Wizard Did It - even in universes where wizards exist, it does little but cheapen that plot flow.
The Thanos' stinger was an attempt to build hype and connection for Infinity War, but on that front it worked - it really got people pumped up for Thanos. But it doesn't connect well to the movie itself for a lot of reasons - much like the Collector stinger for Thor 2 or Hail To The King, it's the movie cutting into its own plot and themes in order to make reference to something, and all it does is raise further questions that probably won't be answered.
It's not something we're not used to from Marvel, though.
Skip The Rant, More to the Point: In part because of all that, but also just in general, it adds a wrinkle to the actual conception of Ultron, and the scenes that surround it. The downside to the stinger is that it's the only indication we have that Thanos is involved - we don't see something otherworldly influence the Mind Gem at any point, or the Gem itself act with any malevolence. We see Tony's process succeed after many failures, but do so in a flawed and malfunctioning way.
Then we see Vision's birth, with Tony noting that the failure before was due to the process being inadequate (one of those things that has to be lies if Thanos was behind it). If the Mind Gem itself is an evil contingency sent by Thanos, Vision should at the very least have to struggle with natural dark urges, which we don't see. And that's because in the movie itself, Vision is the result of Tony finally figuring out how to harness the Mind Gem's power.
With the stinger, we're left to create our own reasons for why that happened instead, as the film gives us none due to all the foreshadowing being limited to that one less-than-a-minute scene. It's a similar situation as the one Hail To The King put us in: in Iron Man 3 itself, the Mandarin doesn't exist, the Ten Rings aren't part of some huge conspiracy and Killian was just using fearmongering. After it, we're left to question a lot of things and create a bunch of crackpot theories, many of which either don't perfectly line up with events or do so only technically/coincidentally, to fit the existence of an influence whose existence wasn't previously hinted at.
edited 28th Sep '16 4:18:01 PM by KnownUnknown
Interesting posters photographed on the Homecoming set
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edited 28th Sep '16 5:28:29 PM by comicwriter
You misunderstand. Ultron isn't the Scepter AI. Ultron is partially the Scepter AI. It's the Scepter AI as filtered through Stark's peacekeeping protocol - resulting in "the homicidal glitches he thinks are his winning personality." It's an amalgamated entity consisting of contradictory goals and impulses, a program that must simultaneously exterminate and protect the Earth - and who goes through rigorous mental gymnastics in order to find ways to satisfy both directives.
And you are wrong about the stinger being the only indication. The other indications are:
- The robotics work Strucker put in before the Avengers reclaimed the scepter. Before Tony built Ultron, Strucker was attempting to do so.
- In his Ultron speech, Tony explains that the Scepter has a conscious mind and shows us its AI, using J.A.R.V.I.S. as a comparison point to demonstrate how much more advanced it is. Later, when Ultron destroys J.A.R.V.I.S., the attack is depicted as coming from the Scepter AI projection.
- Ultron's trials are repeatedly failures until the moment Stark turns his back on the project. Tony actually brings this up in the scene following Ultron's attack in which he and Bruce discuss the fact that Ultron could not possibly have succeeded from the point they were at when they left it to run.
- Tony: Do you always roll over and show your belly every time something snarls?
- Bruce: Only when I've created a murder bot.
- Tony: We didn't. We weren't even CLOSE! Were we close to an interface?
- Bruce: (shrug) Well, you did SOMETHING right!
- J.A.R.V.I.S. is similarly confused and taken aback by Ultron's existence.
- J.A.R.V.I.S.: Hello, I am J.A.R.V.I.S. You are Ultron, a global peace-keeping initiative designed by Mr. Stark. Our sentience integration trials have been unsuccessful so I'm not certain what triggered your—
- Ultron outright calls Stark "a sickness" inside of him. He's not only offended by being identified as one of Stark's machines, but he claims he's infected by Tony. Ultron considers Stark to be an impurity in his design, which means he considers his purpose to be something outside Stark's peacekeeping protocol.
- To this end, Ultron creates Vision to be a new, perfected body for himself. He was never meant to be an independent entity; he was supposed to be a flawless version of Ultron. To this end, Ultron goes back to his source: he breaks open the Scepter and bestows the Mind Gem on Vision.
There are hints and indications all throughout the movie that Ultron is a product of the scepter as much as he is of Stark. They just don't fall into place until the Wham Line in the stinger makes it all suddenly clear.
edited 28th Sep '16 6:03:16 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.But people don't know that.
I say....blame Tony Stark.
It's fun. Call him an asshole, point out he's an egotistical twit who's alienated all of his friends, try to destroy all that he's built....etc, etc.
It's fun for the whole family.....as long as that family isn't named Zemo.
One Strip! One Strip!Winston Duke to play Man-Ape in the Black Panther movie.
http://variety.com/2016/film/news/black-panther-mbaku-man-ape-winston-duke-1201873246/#respond

If even Ultron had gone perfectly without Thanos' Mind Stone meddles, I can't see everything being fine afterward. Tony himself admitted that he was lying and going behind the Avengers' backs to get the Ultron initiative up. Thor thought Tony was just examining the scepter, not using it. Cap would just view it as Project Insight 2.0. And the rest of the nations being told "no more fighting because my privately owned drones are zooming over the entire planet now"? That's a recipe for world war right there.
edited 28th Sep '16 12:39:30 PM by Tuckerscreator