TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62626: Sep 26th 2016 at 10:24:34 AM

Not looking. I want to be unprepared.

So, Tony has suffered in his life. So has Wanda. She lost her parents in a traumatic incident, grew up as an orphan in a poor state which was struggling due to too many more powerful states being interested in it. She was an activist, one which eventually was lured into Hydra because she was offered a chance to finally make a difference, and then she survived experiences which killed a lot of other test subjects. So she has ample reason to loose her way from the get go. And when she does the consequence is that she looses the one last person who matters to her, her brother Pietro. Compared to her, Tony's life has been all roses and daisies. Not that this is a competition, but it is deeply dishonest to act as if Wanda has a plot armour. Especially not since she was treated worse than any other Avenger in custody due to her powers. She is basically afraid of herself at this point, she needs every bit of support she can get.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#62627: Sep 26th 2016 at 10:42:26 AM

It is pretty funny that Wanda, who was clearly fueled by revenge, is catching flak for the same short sightedness and tunnel vision that pretty much describes Tony's personality.

I doubt pre-Iron Man Tony gave much of a shit about 3rd world countries being bombed to Hell thanks to his weapons. And I highly doubt Wanda thought "I'll intentionally send the Hulk to attack a South African city because.... LOL stooping to Tony's level is fun"

So why is Tony, whose actions more likely has the higher body count, forgiven while Wanda still gets shit despite both of them clearly trying to atone? Charisma? The actors playing them? His debut move was just much better than hers?

As for Ultron, Tony shouldn't get flack for that no more than the woman who gave birth to Hitler. Ultron had free will and a sense of morality. No matter how warped it was.

Hell, let's say that Tony should share blame for Ultron. Why on Earth did Pietro not convince his sister to not unleashed the giant rage monster in case it attacks innocent people?

</rant>

edited 26th Sep '16 10:45:45 AM by NoName999

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62628: Sep 26th 2016 at 10:57:08 AM

So why is Tony, whose actions more likely has the higher body count, forgiven while Wanda still gets shit despite both of them clearly trying to atone? Charisma? The actors playing them? His debut move was just much better than hers?

I would guess that all of those factors play a part - but also there's the simple fact that female characters tend to be judged far more harshly (and usually unfairly) than male ones. Look at the kind of hate that Skyler White gets, for no reasonable reason that I can yet discern. This tendency was discussed in the Film Diversity and Representation thread a little while back, in fact.

Now, that said - when you deliberately unleash the Hulk on the outskirts of a populated city, you can't claim ignorance as to the inevitable consequences. That goes for Wanda and Pietro both.

But honestly, it's actually never occurred to me up until this very discussion to continue to judge and condemn Wanda by what she did on Age of Ultron. I pretty much just heard "she wanted revenge on Tony Stark, now she's sorry and she's trying to save the world," and I went "fair enough," and that was that moral quandary resolved.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Cross (Don’t ask)
#62629: Sep 26th 2016 at 11:05:19 AM

I doubt pre-Iron Man Tony gave much of a shit about 3rd world countries being bombed to Hell thanks to his weapons.

So Tony should have been monitoring the U.S. Military?

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#62630: Sep 26th 2016 at 11:17:00 AM

Not monitoring, but the implication is he didn't know or care what happened to the weapons he built— he just made the things. Whatever happened to them after that wasn't his problem.

Most of Tony's villains are, if not self-made, at least born of a certain callous disregard, one way or another. The Ten Rings, Obie, Killian, the twins, these are all things that happened while he was off partying and not using his genius for anything more than to make money in between parties. The fault for Vanko's father was mostly on Stark Sr (who couldn't really do anything about it what with being dead), but it wouldn't have been hard for Tony to know about him and at least see him coming somewhat if he'd looked into the materials his father left behind. The sense that you could have done something and didn't is a tough burden for anyone.

Tony Stark spent a lifetime avoiding responsibility. Unfortunately now he's overcompensating, and that leads to things like Ultron, as well as Tony's part in the ongoing series of miscommunications that was Civil War.

edited 26th Sep '16 11:22:08 AM by Unsung

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62633: Sep 26th 2016 at 11:42:51 AM

This reminds me. Anyone else see those "Casting Calls" for the Runaways characters on this site's character page for them? What do we do about those?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62634: Sep 26th 2016 at 11:45:28 AM

Hopefully he will have time to shot another season of Sherlock immediately after...

Tony should have considered which weapons he should make (it is very telling that Obie has weapons even the US military judged as too questionable to actually use) and he certainly should have kept an eye on what his own company does with the weapon it produces. Howard learned this lesson in the battle of Finnel (or however it is spelled), well, more or less, he at least learned to not sell his bad babies but tried to keep the stuff in a safe.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#62635: Sep 26th 2016 at 11:51:50 AM

Luke Cage hype...!

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Cross (Don’t ask)
#62636: Sep 26th 2016 at 12:01:06 PM

[up][up]The sonic device may not have been Tony's design.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#62637: Sep 26th 2016 at 12:10:16 PM

It would have had his name on it in either case and whether or not he created it he certainly made no efforts to contain it or even seemed to know it existed and had been made by his own company. Which is entirely in character for Tony as he was then, but still not in his favour.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#62638: Sep 26th 2016 at 12:13:37 PM

Wait, if he didn't know it existed, then who specifically made the damn thing?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#62639: Sep 26th 2016 at 12:27:21 PM

@Very Melon: I'd get rid of them - they're not necessary for understanding the comics, and we have no idea if they'll be using these exact ones for this show (they've been around for years, if I recall).

Maybe find away to keep them around, though, just in case?

Oh God! Natural light!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62640: Sep 26th 2016 at 12:34:36 PM

Considering the movie is effectively dead in the water, there's no reason for them to be there.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62641: Sep 26th 2016 at 12:38:34 PM

I went and deleted the casting calls.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#62642: Sep 26th 2016 at 1:04:53 PM

Wait, if he didn't know it existed, then who specifically made the damn thing?

IF the idea is correct, presumably Stane or more likely those technicians he had trying to reverse engineer the Iron Man armour. Or possibly it was Tony being rather like his father and casually knocking together some potentially disastrous tech without thinking of the consequences.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62643: Sep 26th 2016 at 1:11:21 PM

The two sequels make a repeated point of showing that Tony finds business to be really fucking boring, which is why he gives his job to Pepper in the first place. It's not difficult to imagine that Stane was taking advantage of any sort of inattentiveness to have stuff made without Tony's consent.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62644: Sep 26th 2016 at 1:37:28 PM

Tony knew the thing existed, judging by the way Stane talked about it....if he made it himself is unclear, but the working of it weren't any news to him. Stark industries does have a R and D, but I guess Tony was the source of the best ideas, which was the main reason why Stane waited so long to get rid of him.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62645: Sep 26th 2016 at 4:10:31 PM

Sounds about right.

It's like I said: in universe at least, the reason Tony takes so much shit and the reason Wanda doesn't is probably because he's Tony Stark.

He'll pulled so much shit that people are never not gonna want to knock him off his high horse. The thing is, that horse died a long time ago, and now they are just kicking a man who fell off his off, broke both legs and is crawling desperately on the ground.

Between the crap Stane pulled in his name, his genuine ego and narcissism, and the fact that he's a world famous celebrity, he's just gonna be a punching bag.

This applies at least a little out of universe as well. It's easy to forget the genuine good Tony has done (or tried to do) when his more dick moves seem so in your face, so it lends to people punishing him and absolving Wanda.

Now, the fairest thing to do is to not treat one as demon and the other as an innocent angel that must be defended....but to acknowledge that both of them are assholes.....who are trying to atone.

Unfortunately, this will be hard for a lot of people.

One Strip! One Strip!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#62646: Sep 26th 2016 at 7:32:49 PM

I think the issue for me in treating Wanda and Tony as "equal wrongdoers trying to atone" is that Tony has been seen visibly regretting his past actions and trying to undo his crimes. Wanda hasn't shown her regret. Her motive for changing sides (finding out Ultron would wipe out humanity) is the easiest possible motive for anyone short of an Omnicidal Maniac to turn against. Red Skull would've fought against that. Loki would've tried to stop that. Even literal supervillains didn't want to kill off all life on Earth including themselves. It's not her realizing "the Avengers are right and I'm wrong", it's "Ultron is so far off the deep end even for me."

I feel that this plot point was done better in Guardians of the Galaxy. Its protagonists too are criminals faced with incoming doom of a world-destroying maniac, but they realize that this time up until now they've only been selfish and now it's time "to give a s***", as Peter puts it. And after they save Xandar, they might be committed to being better people but it's still hard for them to unlearn old habits like stealing and murder. That's something I appreciate the film showing, that choosing to reform is one thing but it's not an instant-success "I can never do bad now ever" change.

edited 26th Sep '16 7:59:01 PM by Tuckerscreator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62647: Sep 26th 2016 at 8:06:48 PM

Wanda hasn't shown her regret.
She shows immediate regret in Lagos. The only reason we haven't see her regret her actions in Johannesburg is that nobody has brought it up.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#62648: Sep 26th 2016 at 8:09:44 PM

My prior comment had nothing to do with Lagos; her regret there means nothing about her acts under Ultron.

edited 26th Sep '16 8:10:21 PM by Tuckerscreator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62649: Sep 26th 2016 at 9:13:41 PM

Regarding why Tony is forgiven more easily than Wanda:

There's also a lot of mitigating factors in building Ultron.

  1. Tony was under the influence of Wanda's powers at the time.
  2. Tony had the best of intentions when he constructed Ultron.
  3. Thanos all but claims credit for Ultron going nuts, which Tony corroborates when he points out that successfully creating Ultron was impossible.
  4. Tony later succeeds in making what Ultron is supposed to be when he builds Vision, and Vision's pure Worthy awesomesauce, vindicating Tony's efforts.

It's a very different situation than deliberately sending the Hulk into a population center to murder and pillage.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62650: Sep 26th 2016 at 9:15:06 PM

My prior comment had nothing to do with Lagos; her regret there means nothing about her acts under Ultron.
During the siege of Sokovia, she expresses regret. People overlook it because it comes right before Hawkeye's awesome speech:

Wanda: [panicking] How could I let this happen?
Hawkeye: Hey, you okay?
Wanda: This is all our fault!
Hawkeye: Hey! Look at me! It's your fault, it's everyone's fault, who cares? Are you up for this? Are you? [Wanda stares blankly] Look, I just need to know 'cause, uh, the city is, is flying... Okay, look, the city is flying, we're fighting an army of robots, and I have a bow and arrow. None of this makes sense. [takes out an Ultron drone] But I'm going back out there 'cause it's my job. Okay? And I can't do my job and babysit. Doesn't matter what you did, or what you were. If you go out there, you fight, and you fight to kill. Stay in here, you're good. I'll send your brother to come find you. But if you step out that door…you are an Avenger.

edited 26th Sep '16 9:16:22 PM by alliterator


Total posts: 186,763
Top