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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#62601: Sep 24th 2016 at 3:48:44 PM

[up][up]

And Laura Dern's in Star Wars 8. Now they just need BD Wong in something.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62602: Sep 25th 2016 at 11:19:36 AM

Apparently Doctor Strange actually pushed production back by several months in order to get Cumberbatch. Derrickson really wanted Benny C. for that project, apparently.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#62604: Sep 25th 2016 at 1:47:42 PM

Sam Neill has a part in Thor: Ragnarok.
Hmmmmmm.

Suspects: The Leader, High Evolutionary, The Magus,

edited 25th Sep '16 1:52:49 PM by nervmeister

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62605: Sep 25th 2016 at 5:23:30 PM

So I read the Tony / Wanda thing.

I get it. I totally understand. And the fact that the movie never has them really talking to each other except after the big battle definitely makes it harder.

As for why there's such a Double Standard against Tony as opposed to Wanda....

It's because he's Tony Stark.

Because for years, he was a selfish, egotistical, hedonistic asshole who had everything, when others seemed to have nothing. And this made people hate him. Then he finds out he screwed up, and tried to make it right, but most just saw it as covering his ass. They spent too long hating him for such a gesture to make them change their minds.

And then it turns out, he just made himself a new weapon. Sure, he claims he's suddenly a hero, but he's still being the same arrogant ass he's always been (to those who don't see him in more private moments).

And lets be honest: even Tony's friends can lose patience with him: Pepper got so mad at him, that during the events of the second movie he never even got the chance to tell her about the Palladium poisoning, to say nothing of the Party incident. If his own Friends can end up turning on him due to his actions (since he's not always clear about why he's doing something), then how can you expect people who only see his more arrogant outer shell to understand him.

So yeah. Wanda screwed up, but to most, she'll never be as big a target as Tony. People literally come out of the wood work to take him down a peg, because he's the kind of guy you never stop wanting to tear down, to teach a lesson to, because it seems he doesn't worry about anything, or care about anything but himself.

One Strip! One Strip!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62606: Sep 25th 2016 at 6:01:31 PM

In a twist of irony, Ultron went from being Ant-Man's Never Live It Down moment to Tony's Never Live It Down moment.

edited 25th Sep '16 6:01:45 PM by comicwriter

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#62607: Sep 25th 2016 at 6:42:47 PM

[up]I thought Ant-Man's Never Live It Down moment was this:

HANK: {Slaps the Wasp, AKA His Wife} Shut up! I've got to do this! I've got to save the day before their eyes! Don't you see? It's my only chance to redeem myself! It's the only way!

So unless Tony gets this...

TONY: {Slaps Pepper Pots, AKA His Girlfriend} Shut up! I've got to do this! I've got to save the day before their eyes! Don't you see? It's my only chance to redeem myself! It's the only way!

...it's not exactly going to be the same thing. Though I guess creating Ultron is a close second.tongue

edited 25th Sep '16 6:43:56 PM by kkhohoho

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#62608: Sep 25th 2016 at 6:54:49 PM

[up]So we need Tony beating someone else wife and it sold.

Now about Wanda and Tony

". I don’t have a problem with Tony saying, “I screwed up, I wasn’t watching my company like I should have been, I trusted the wrong people, and I don’t do that anymore, I’m working on fixing my mistakes and making a better world.” And you can easily draw a parallel between Wanda not trusting the right people, getting involved in Hydra, and realizing the same thing-she trusted wrong, she hurt people, she lost her brother, and she will do better and be better going forward. That’s a believable, readable arc right there!"

Yeah, this is what bother me the most, is not really dificult to introduce the storyline, but it clear south africa would move thing into pro-reg side, well a pity

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62609: Sep 26th 2016 at 12:20:53 AM

To me the whole tony wanda discussion reminds of this "But this MCU movie did too" discussion which often happens regarding the DCEU. This is not really about being angry about wanda getting a pass considering that she is hardly the first character in the MCU who did so. This is about feeling protective of Tony and therefore liking to make the other characters look bad to make him look better. It used to be (and sometimes still is) Steve who gets it the worst. In some fanfictions he is portrayed as an unthankful a-hole in order to portray Tony as the poor whobie who gets mistreated by all the Avengers. He is anything but that. Tony is a grown adult who yes, experienced more than one trauma in his life, but so has every single avenger other than Thor perhaps. Well, and Vision since he is barely two years old. When there are complains that Wanda didn't have any consequences for the Hulk incident, people willingly overlook some aspects of it...for starters that usually her victims don't react that way to her powers and, a point which Steve makes in Age of Ultron, that she is doing this because she believes in her cause. But she is not a terrorist, not really, since the Avengers are not civilians and the facility which helps out with Avenger technology doesn't exactly count as a civilian target, either. Wanda is hardly the first person in history who got a pardon in order to work for the former enemy once a war was over. She won't be the last. And yes, you can discuss if this is the right thing to do, but that is not what is happening here, is it? If that were the topic we would discuss Wanda, Natasha, maybe Skye or Zola, but instead we are discussing Tony.

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#62610: Sep 26th 2016 at 1:35:37 AM

Yes, to Swanpride's whole post.

Every so often we talk about Thor and Loki, and it's almost a given that someones going to say some very unkind things about 'Loki fangirls'. And I used to just roll my eyes and move on without comment because that seemed like a silly thing t be upset about. But. But if they're anything like the folks insisting that Steve and the rest of Team Cap are all evil, ungrateful assholes and Tony was completely right and just a blameless victim of betrayal on all sides, I can see where the vitriol comes from. Because god damn does that get annoying. The best comment I've ever seen was an author's note (it was a fanfic) that read as follows: "Steve was an ass. I'm tired of people acting like Tony wasn't one, too".

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62611: Sep 26th 2016 at 2:26:18 AM

[up] The loki fangirls can be annoying, but for one, they have an entirely different target for their ire (it's basically all Odin's fault) and they are usually at least ready to acknowledge that whatever excuse one comes up for Loki, he still brought a lot on himself through his actions.

I think the only group which is worse than the tony-fans is the "stand with Ward" crowd...there was nothing more satisfying than the writers of Ao S commenting on them in a very direct manner (they more or less symbolically shot them).

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#62612: Sep 26th 2016 at 2:46:35 AM

I concur. Tony is/was a dick, albeit not just that, and Wanda is a fine character with a few flaws.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#62614: Sep 26th 2016 at 7:46:24 AM

that usually her victims don't react that way to her powers

Not all her victims had the same reaction. For instance, Tony was the only one who got it into his head to build Skynet. For that matter, the last time Hulk went on a rampage prior to Ao U was when he was screwed up by Loki's Scepter. Even if you claim she didn't want that to happen, how would that be any different than Tony and his mistakes?

But she is not a terrorist

Yeah she is. The people of Johannesburg are proof of that.

she is doing this because she believes in her cause.

So did Red Skull, Ultron and every other villain in the MCU.

This is about feeling protective of Tony and therefore liking to make the other characters look bad to make him look better.

We see the same with Wanda except by the actual writers of the movies instead of just fans.

If that were the topic we would discuss Wanda, Natasha, maybe Skye or Zola, but instead we are discussing Tony.

The difference between Wanda and those characters is that the latter are constantly called out on their mistakes, while everyone just makes excuses for Wanda. As those posts said, you can't coddle her as a child while showing her as making adult decisions. If she's just a kid, treat her like one and keep her from making decisions that affect people's lives. If not, actually have her make amends instead of shielding her from the consequences.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62615: Sep 26th 2016 at 8:38:42 AM

She it not different from Tony. That is my whole point. He makes mistakes and we are largely okay with him being forgiven for them because he meant well. She made her mistakes not because she was evil, but because she believed in a cause she perceived as just, and what she actually did was way less "evil" than some of the stuff Black Widow has been up to in her past and cause was less collateral damage than Tony used to do. The only reason some people are targeting Wanda that heavily for what she did is because they want to defend Tony. Again, Ultron wasn't her fault, it was his. She didn't force him to do that, she just showed him his fears, and while she expected this to result in his self-destruction, she was only using character flaws which were already there. It wasn't mind control.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#62616: Sep 26th 2016 at 8:41:27 AM

Except people aren't largely okay with Tony being forgiven. Seriously, this forum is the only place where Wanda's actions are brought up more than once.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62617: Sep 26th 2016 at 8:45:42 AM

People are totally okay with Tony being forgiven. I have yet to see anyone claiming that he should be put under house arrest or that the government has every right to put him into a straight jacket and into a prison cell. Tony is allowed to have as many flaws as he wants. But Wanda for some reason has to be a perfect human being or she is eeeeeevil.

Cross (Don’t ask)
#62618: Sep 26th 2016 at 8:50:58 AM

Tony hasn't really be forgiven by most people for Ultron, but punishing him for seem unjustified.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62619: Sep 26th 2016 at 9:11:39 AM

Tony hasn't really be forgiven by most people for Ultron, but punishing him for seem unjustified.
Replace "Tony" with "Wanda" and you will get a bunch of disagreements here. Why, exactly, should Wanda be punished and not Tony? Wanda worked for Ultron. Tony built Ultron.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62620: Sep 26th 2016 at 9:22:11 AM

I suppose the reasoning there would be that Tony had good (if arrogant) intentions when he built Ultron - he was trying to achieve something noble in his own misguided way, and had no idea of the way it was going to turn out.

Wanda, however, can't say the same. She didn't accidentally create or enable Ultron, she actively joined him and helped him realize his evil schemes. Now, she was also manipulated to a certain extent - she just wanted revenge on the Avengers, she didn't want to wipe out all life on Earth - but still, when you trigger one of the Hulk's rampages next to a densely populated city, you know full well how that's going to turn out.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Cross (Don’t ask)
#62621: Sep 26th 2016 at 9:22:41 AM

People have been saying Wanda working with the Avengers is how she been atoning.

Also, Tony wasn't the only person involved in Ultron's "creation". Putting aside Bruce or the hallucination, Wanda with hope Tony would self destruct vetoed Pietro request to just kill him and let picked the metaphorical gun that ends up killing a bunch of people.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#62622: Sep 26th 2016 at 9:30:26 AM

" Why, exactly, should Wanda be punished and not Tony? Wanda worked for Ultron. Tony built Ultron."

point is, Tony have his all life kick out by CW, Bucky is also judge for his deeds even if he was brainwashed, but Wanda is shield or her flaws, that is the annoying thing, Wanda push tony for creating Ultron, work with ultron, unleash Hulk in south africa and both Ao U and CW decide to just put this under the rug

"she just showed him his fears, and while she expected this to result in his self-destruction, she was only using character flaws which were already there. It wasn't mind control."

this is manipulation using her mind power, a this point you are reaaaaally streching thing, she impulse the used of the scepter, that tony was going to do it ether way many not diferent because SHE was pushing that in the moment.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#62623: Sep 26th 2016 at 9:52:40 AM

New Luke Cage trailer:

Make mine Marvel.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62625: Sep 26th 2016 at 10:01:51 AM

This show continues to look incredible. Looks like the events of Jessica Jones are going to be used as something of a segue for some of the characters, which is neat.

I have a feeling this show isn't going to be good for my circadian rhythm, because I'm surely going to want to binge-watch the entire thing all at once.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

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