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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#62451: Sep 19th 2016 at 3:31:47 PM

I like that short, and y'know, canon until proven otherwise, but I suspect the real reason we won't see the 'real' Mandarin is because the role of evil warlord wielding a fistful of flashy alien power jewelry whilst sitting in his palace is already adequately taken up by Thanos.

For me personally, the most faithful version of the Mandarin is never going to make me as happy as Trevor Slattery, stammering, drunken, and high. I'd like to see *him* make a return appearance.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62452: Sep 19th 2016 at 3:34:34 PM

True. As a magician, Baron Mordo's probably going to take the place he would have had. As an overlord collecting artifacts of ultimate power, Thanos has been doing that job. Even as the a mystical leader with a lot of influence, the Ancient One is basically that character type (except a Good Counterpart) and she's white too.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62453: Sep 19th 2016 at 6:28:44 PM

I like that short, and y'know, canon until proven otherwise, but I suspect the real reason we won't see the 'real' Mandarin is because the role of evil warlord wielding a fistful of flashy alien power jewelry whilst sitting in his palace is already adequately taken up by Thanos.

It's also a really shitty take on the Mandarin.

The character is at his best when he's The Man Behind the Man...Behind The Man. Hidden in layers of secrecy and subterfuge, manipulating all sides to arrive at a desirable conclusion that most benefits him, preferably without anyone realizing that it did. Ideally, if they ever did try to go somewhere with "The Real Mandarin", it should not be publicized even the tiniest bit. As in Winter Soldier with Hydra, the audience should be utterly blindsided by the Mandarin's presence.

In essence, the character should be exactly the kind of character that the Ten Rings shot in the foot from day one, that Killian did a decent job of being, and that Maya would have done an even better job of. And that All Hail the King continued shooting in the foot by having the "real Mandarin" perform ego-masturbation for the benefit of the film's detractors.

edited 19th Sep '16 6:29:48 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62454: Sep 19th 2016 at 6:34:54 PM

They really needed to stick to their guns with the Mandarin being fake. If he's not real, he's not real. There's nothing wrong with that - as much as I dislike the movie's villains for a variety of reasons, the twist wasn't one of them: imo it was genius no matter what the detractors say. Them going out of their way to then introduce a "real" Mandarin that they, let's be honest, never had any intention of actually following up on nor had any ability to do so even if they did just complicated things.

Even in the film, them shoehorning in a line where Killian tries to take the identity of the Mandarin was really silly - like when Blake is inexplicably named Robin in TDKR. The thought put into making him a believable fake was great, so just let that image be what he is.

I do have what I think would be a decent idea of what a good Mandarin would look like and what kind of plot he would use, but I would've been fine with him just not being a thing at all. I like the idea of the character being done well, but understand (if with a bit of disappointment) the writers' hesitance at trying to put in the work to do so. But half-assing it just looks bad for everyone

edited 19th Sep '16 6:39:46 PM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62455: Sep 19th 2016 at 6:39:23 PM

The twist doesn't make any sense, however, if you think that the Ten Rings are run by the Mandarin and the Ten Rings in the first Iron Man were obviously not under Killian's instructions. It only makes sense if there was a fake Mandarin and a real Mandarin.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62456: Sep 19th 2016 at 6:41:11 PM

I don't recall IM 3 literally connecting the Mandarin to the Ten Rings outside of meta stuff and writer/director comments before the movie came out, but if there was a hand-wave or line somewhere in there it can easily be explained by Killian just fabricating it.

The only mention of a Mandarin-like figure in the first movie was actually cut out, and thus isn't canon. As far as is relevant the leader of the Ten Rings could've just been Raza before Killian claimed his guy was the man in charge of everything. The twist runs on people assuming that there's a connection there, both in-universe and to gotcha the audience, but there wasn't one until Hail To the King retconned it.

Hail to the King also introduces the idea of that if there was a Mandarin, he's largely mythical and likely dead, only to have the twist that he's not.

edited 19th Sep '16 6:46:09 PM by KnownUnknown

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62457: Sep 19th 2016 at 7:02:17 PM

IMO you would have been fine just ignoring it. I can see why they'd feel the need to explain the discrepancy between Mandarin being an actor and the Ten Rings being a real terrorist group, but there was also nothing in any of the previous Iron Man films explicitly referencing the Mandarin. The name "Ten Rings" was really only significant if you were a comic fan.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#62458: Sep 19th 2016 at 7:34:36 PM

In that sense, it seems like an aborted arc or as you say, just a wink and nod.

I suppose it's also possible that the Ten Rings could be the name of a terrorist group that's inspired by the Mandarin but has no connection with him. Like for example, ISIL refers to itself as the Caliphate but if Zombie Harun al Rashid existed and had a bunch of magic rings, that doesn't mean he's their leader.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#62459: Sep 19th 2016 at 7:45:10 PM

The Ten Rings got a nod in Ant-Man so they're still being thought of, Mandarin-controlled or not. That might go somewhere.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62460: Sep 19th 2016 at 7:46:05 PM

I'm still wondering what they're planning on doing to the guy who ran off with the Pym Particles.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#62461: Sep 19th 2016 at 7:52:43 PM

In essence, the character should be exactly the kind of character that the Ten Rings shot in the foot from day one, that Killian did a decent job of being, and that Maya would have done an even better job of. And that All Hail the King continued shooting in the foot by having the "real Mandarin" perform ego-masturbation for the benefit of the film's detractors.

I mostly feel the same way— I liked this twist— but I look at the short as (maybe) being able to give us the best of both worlds— if the studio ever wanted to bring back either Mandarin (and I doubt they will, but hey), this gives them a thread to pick up. If they wanted to keep the 'real' Mandarin perpetually in the shadows and have him be a completely unassailable terrorist figurehead, that might be the best possible use of him. Meanwhile, if they want to give us a window into the workings of the Ten Rings through Slattery, I'd be amenable to that too.

What I like most about the short is that Iron Man has at least two bad guys who are still alive. Admittedly they're both decoy villains who pose no actual threat and serve solely as comic relief, but it does give him a rogues gallery in a way that no other MCU character really has at this point. Sad as it might be.note 

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#62463: Sep 19th 2016 at 7:55:12 PM

On the same note, I want the Yellowjacket suit to come back in some capacity. It's just so freaking cool.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#62465: Sep 19th 2016 at 8:38:01 PM

Warning for possible squick as the middle of that is NSFW and on-the-nose about it.

edited 19th Sep '16 8:39:05 PM by AlleyOop

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62466: Sep 19th 2016 at 9:37:25 PM

The twist doesn't make any sense, however, if you think that the Ten Rings are run by the Mandarin and the Ten Rings in the first Iron Man were obviously not under Killian's instructions. It only makes sense if there was a fake Mandarin and a real Mandarin.

No, what makes sense is that there's no such thing as the Mandarin and the Ten Rings are just an assorted bunch of terrorists with no real leadership whatsoever. The Mandarin started making his videos and the Ten Rings were like, "Is that guy with us?" "Don't be stupid. Look how much American ass he is kicking! He must be one of us!"

It's not uncommon for terrorists to claim credit for things they had nothing to do with just because they like the idea of having it associated with them.

Until Iron Man 3, the Mandarin only existed in the anticipation of the audience. He was never actually mentioned or even implied to exist; just inferred by the audience to be a thing because they're called the Ten Rings. In-universe, Raza was the closest thing to a leader the Ten Rings are ever shown to have.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#62467: Sep 20th 2016 at 10:08:29 AM

[up][up][up] I'm not a Stucky man at all, but that was legitimately amazing.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#62468: Sep 20th 2016 at 12:25:40 PM

I reckon maybe the best thing to do with the 'Real' Mandarin would be to keep him shrouded in myth. He's the man behind the man to a whole lot of individual villains/plots and has fingers in multiple criminal pies but isn't actually fought on screen at all.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#62469: Sep 20th 2016 at 1:02:16 PM

[up]Yeah, that might work. If he kept being mentioned without ever actually being seen throughout the MCU. Growing in power, maybe never actually fought at all— even if they take out one of his operations, he's nowhere to be seen. Hydra without the same level of power or control, but without the rampant Villain Decay as well. Less effective in some ways, but much harder to stamp out in others.

...Although I still think the Mandarin is done in the MCU. They'd written themselves into a corner with the Ten Rings. Ben Kingsley was great on both sides of the role, but the point of the character was to point out both how problematic those kinds of villains are, as well as the artificial nature of them. Hydra can be defeated because they're not as decentralized as their name would imply; real terror cells succeed because their attacks are often random and they don't have the scope or influence of Hydra. Massive conspiracies don't really happen on that scale in real life, because that many people can't keep a secret for that long, even less so as we advance through the Information Age.

edited 20th Sep '16 1:15:14 PM by Unsung

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62470: Sep 20th 2016 at 1:14:28 PM

Hydra can't be defeated because it is more a particular mindset than an organisation

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#62471: Sep 20th 2016 at 1:20:52 PM

Well, there is that, but that's true of terrorism, fascism, communism, monarchism, democracy, any idea at all, really. Hydra might make a comeback, but its effectiveness has been severely and publicly curtailed in a way that's hard to do for more broadly defined terrorist organizations. Hydra's political connections, its public holdings, its ancient cult, those have all been burnt down to the ground. You can only do that to them because they'd risen so high in the first place, but that also makes their defeat more meaningful. Even if they return, it would be in name only, and that name has been tarnished. It loses a lot of its intimidation factor.

edited 20th Sep '16 3:35:48 PM by Unsung

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62472: Sep 20th 2016 at 3:27:17 PM

Hydra can't be defeated because it is more a particular mindset than an organisation

....Cut off one head, and two more take it's place.

Huh. I mean, that phrase always made sense, but now, it makes super sense.

....Or am I a Late to the Party Captain Obvious on this one?

One Strip! One Strip!
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#62473: Sep 20th 2016 at 5:31:06 PM

Chadwick Boseman has teased that the Black Panther film will explore Wakanda's history, including the country's culture, and the legacy of the Black Panther mantle. I'm kind of hoping this means we'll get some sort of glimpse of previous Panthers.

I'm also curious as to how exactly they'll explain his abilities. Is it just an "ordinary" super-soldier serum of some sort, or will they be keeping the mystical trappings as well?

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62474: Sep 20th 2016 at 7:04:28 PM

Nice. Looking forward to it. There's a great scene where Mephisto tries to get T'Challa's soul, not realizing that he'd also have to try and get the souls of all the previous men and women who used the identity before him. It was pretty awesome.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#62475: Sep 20th 2016 at 7:13:55 PM

What is Mephisto's head supposed to be in that panel?

edited 20th Sep '16 7:14:02 PM by Kostya


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