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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62301: Sep 13th 2016 at 1:52:41 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]I thought it looks better here than the previous still.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#62302: Sep 13th 2016 at 1:53:18 PM

Even the best villain of this modern superhero era, Heath Ledger's Joker, had plans that made less sense the more one thought about them. But he worked because said plan came off as on-the-fly prep that adjust for different outcomes. Goon didn't get killed by the banker? Lure him to the bus spot. Got captured instead of getting Dent? Okay, that's what bomb guy's for. Dent didn't die when his trap exploded? Okay, turn him into a revenge seeker. The two boats didn't blow each other up? "You gotta have an ace in the hole."

On paper, BVS's Luthor's plan is okay to me (aside from Doomsday, because there's no possible good outcome at all). But the lack of clear motive is what separates Eisenluthor from Joker and, yes, Zemo. And jars of pee, of course.

edited 13th Sep '16 2:27:01 PM by Tuckerscreator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62304: Sep 13th 2016 at 2:16:33 PM

Part of the reason Joker's improvisation worked so well was that we actually do see him f*ck up a bunch.

A lot of evil schemes rely on adaptation and improvisation to a certain extent, but that doesn't sell as such to audiences when every aspect seems to go off without a hitch. Seeing the villain actually get taken aback at various points and consciously watching him go, "Okay, f*ck, doing this other thing," can go a long way to selling a master planner in a believable fashion.

Things go his way in the broad sense, but we see hitches in the scheme left and right. What hurts Zemo is that the only time he actually seems to endure a setback, it's in the beginning with the loyal Hydra guy. Even when he's busted in the Avenger compound, he's smug and confident, which communicates to the audience that even this is all according to plan.

edited 13th Sep '16 2:20:31 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62305: Sep 13th 2016 at 2:30:20 PM

I thought he was smug and all because his plan worked either way? Like, he didn't kill himself like he was supposed to, but he still broke up the Avengers.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62306: Sep 13th 2016 at 2:30:33 PM

Cracked did a whole article on that, arguing that Ledger's Joker ruined modern superhero villains because they all try to copy him now, even when it doesn't work for that specific character.

They noted the "nonsensical plan" complaint here and said that made complete sense for the Joker because the Joker is a completely random guy. In the movie itself, he flat out says that he's like a dog chasing a car, and just does whatever he finds amusing at the moment. That's completely fitting for him given the type of character he is.

They contrasted that with Baby Luthor and Ultron, and said that their plans similarly make no goddamn sense, but there's far less justification for why. Luthor is a genius billionaire and Ultron is a badass killer AI, so the closest we get to an explanation for why their plans are so damn stupid is "Well, uh, they're like, totally insane or something, so they don't realize their plans suck."

edited 13th Sep '16 2:31:28 PM by comicwriter

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62307: Sep 13th 2016 at 2:31:41 PM

At least Ultron doesn't really follow a human thought process because he's not human.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#62308: Sep 13th 2016 at 2:39:06 PM

RE: DVD commentary.

"I cannot wait to put Chris Evans in the Nomad outfit."

Cap-cleavage confirmed.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62309: Sep 13th 2016 at 3:31:34 PM

I thought he was smug and all because his plan worked either way? Like, he didn't kill himself like he was supposed to, but he still broke up the Avengers.

I mean when he was caught in Bucky's cell, right after getting the coordinates and unleashing the Winter Soldier on everyone. Cap has him dead to rights and he plays it off like he's completely in control and everything is still going according to plan.

Contrast when Gordon reveals himself to still be alive as he nails the Joker. Like Zemo, Joker's got an 'out', so to speak. He's prepared for this possibility and has a measure in place that will get him out of this jam. But the way he reacts to Gordon - frustrated, flabbergasted, hilariously begging for just a few minutes alone with the prone Batman - tells the audience in no uncertain terms that this is NOT part of the plan and he got totally busted.

When Zemo is completely nonplussed by Cap pinning him to a wall, it creates the impression that his plan actually included this. "And then Captain America will discover my identity before I can escape and attack me, but I know that he will make no effort to actually restrain me in any permanent fashion before dashing off to fight Bucky, because reasons!"

Which is ridiculous, but the villain's attitude is very important for audience perception. Ultimately, both Zemo and Joker are playing Xanatos Speed Chess, but Joker sells it better because of the way he reacts to complications, while Zemo spends so little time clearly improvising on-screen that some in the audience came away assuming that literally everything that happened was actually the plan.

edited 13th Sep '16 3:34:48 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#62310: Sep 13th 2016 at 3:40:16 PM

There's two times when Zemo's plan gets iffy for me. I can roll with every other part of it, no matter how much a stretch it is, except for these:

1. He disguises himself as a psychologist to get into a well-guarded government compound where they let him interview the uber-dangerous cyborg assassin that it took them years to finally capture. Here's the issue, did no one there know what that psychologist look like? Or did they not have his face on file or something? Seems like a really careless oversight for this super-duper government facility.

2. The entire thing with the videotape itself just falls apart for me the longer I think about it. That's where they lost me with Zemo and his plan.

edited 13th Sep '16 3:42:57 PM by Punisher286

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62311: Sep 13th 2016 at 3:43:38 PM

I can kinda buy number one, if only because I believe there have been cases where that has happened (none come to mind, but ya know, fuck ups happen). It'd still require a shitload of good luck on Zemo's part, though.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62312: Sep 13th 2016 at 4:08:32 PM

[up][up] The psychologist was flown in (though naturally they do it this way mostly for the benefit of the audience).

But yeah, the one problem is that this tape somehow exists...if Hydra itself had set this one up in order to watch Bucky during his mission in order to ensure that he wouldn't break the programming the second he sees Howard this could have worked, but apparently it was a random camera and Bucky decided to shoot it out after he had already done the deed. This set-up is very iffy.

edited 13th Sep '16 4:10:15 PM by Swanpride

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62313: Sep 13th 2016 at 5:39:44 PM

I didn't see the actual roast but that clip for the Captain America roast looked funny. The line about Black Widow trying the scissor kick on Thanos got a chuckle out of me.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#62314: Sep 14th 2016 at 12:38:41 AM

Rebecca Hall confirms those rumors about Hansen's role being axed due to toy sales. Given the toy-centric nature of the argument being identical to the one used for Black Widow, it's almost certainly Perlmutter's doing.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62316: Sep 14th 2016 at 6:45:17 AM

Fuck you, Perlmutter

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#62317: Sep 14th 2016 at 6:49:50 AM

[up]Couldn't agree more!

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62318: Sep 14th 2016 at 7:11:15 AM

I would have loved it if Maya was the villain. It would have made is so much more interesting and then her stupid death wouldn't have happened.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62319: Sep 14th 2016 at 7:12:15 AM

Honestly, now that Perlmutter is out of the picture, there is a good chance that the MCU will become even better. (I always said that Maya should have been the villain).

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62320: Sep 14th 2016 at 7:13:34 AM

Well, now we are getting at least two female villains (Ayesha in Guardians vol 2 and Hela in Thor: Ragnarok).

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62321: Sep 14th 2016 at 7:21:30 AM

Some really neat editing there....

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#62322: Sep 14th 2016 at 7:21:50 AM

I'm glad now that he is gone (or atleast influence less), the people behind the scene are now more open to the shit he did that hurt the franchise's diversity.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62324: Sep 14th 2016 at 7:26:28 AM

Apparently the release of the movie spurned some really talented and creative people into action...

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62325: Sep 14th 2016 at 10:19:48 AM

They did a much better job with toys for the female characters in Civil War, and said they plan to continue to do so with Guardians 2.

I wonder if that is a direct result of Perlmutter's diminished influence or just them reacting to the PR backlash over Age of Ultron's toys.


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