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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62251: Sep 12th 2016 at 7:11:01 AM

Shield was taken down, Coulson and his team was supposed to create a new, a better shield.
Except Cap said, "No more SHIELD." That means no SHIELD completely not "Okay, let's shut down most of it except for this one group I trust and then have them rebuild SHIELD." Fury just disregards Cap and does it in secret.

edited 12th Sep '16 7:11:30 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62252: Sep 12th 2016 at 7:25:51 AM

WikiLeaks and Edward Snowden were also a hot topic when Winter Soldier came out, which is why the film ends with the protagonists WikiLeaking all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s data. People at the time were still in the honeymoon phase of WikiLeaks and worshipping the ground Snowden walked on.

It's funny 'cause the perception of WikiLeaks has gone massively downhill in recent months with heavy suspicions that it is, and always has been, a Russian foreign intelligence attack on the U.S. And the person who leaked all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s data is a Soviet spy....

[up] And every life in Sokovia would have been lost if he hadn't, too. Age of Ultron implicitly presents Fury flipping Cap the middle finger as a good thing, then somehow lets Cap take moral credit for it anyway.

edited 12th Sep '16 7:29:45 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#62253: Sep 12th 2016 at 7:52:59 AM

Is it really fair to equate Snowden with Wiki Leaks?

Oh God! Natural light!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62254: Sep 12th 2016 at 7:57:13 AM

At the time, they were basically the same topic. WikiLeaks entered the public consciousness through Snowden's actions. He put them on the map.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62255: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:07:59 AM

And every life in Sokovia would have been lost if he hadn't, too.
I'm not saying that Cap was right, I'm just saying that Fury ignored him.

WikiLeaks and Edward Snowden were also a hot topic when Winter Soldier came out, which is why the film ends with the protagonists WikiLeaking all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s data.
The whole film was written and filmed before Snowden was a thing however (Snowden released documents in June 2013, principal photography for The Winter Soldier began April 2013).

edited 12th Sep '16 8:08:15 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62256: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:14:46 AM

I'm not saying that Cap was right, I'm just saying that Fury ignored him.

I know. I was agreeing with you. Sometimes I respond directly to posts to support what they're saying rather than argue against it.

edited 12th Sep '16 8:15:27 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62257: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:29:49 AM

The problem with the ending was sort of short-sighted in the grand scheme of things. Expecting that a team of six people could more effectively protect the world than a massive army of peace-keeping agents was a nice as a Wham Line but in practice they would have been boned if it weren't for not-SHIELD.

Still of Ghost Rider.

edited 12th Sep '16 8:35:01 AM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62258: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:38:27 AM

[up][up][up] Which makes the Winter Soldier even more awesome, it addressed a topic which was already present at this time in anticipation of it becoming way more relevant later.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#62259: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:42:53 AM

I never saw the Hydra reveal as invalidating the discussion because its not like these are original hydras, excepting Zola.

Hydra is the comic book costume it wears but it represents a real, if exaggerated thing. A lean towards fascism, siding with security over liberty. When you look at some of the shady stuff that's happened in US history, it fits right in. In-universe, if anything, Hydra just gave a name to a trend that already existed.

All the hydra people in Winter Soldier, again excepting Zola, are home grown.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#62260: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:50:44 AM

That's where the Debate and Switch comes from. Trailers heavily played up the ideological conflict between Fury and Rogers, masking Hydra's involvement by creating the impression that the movie was actually going to be about Cap and S.H.I.E.L.D. coming to blows over the latter's authoritarian measures towards ensuring absolute security at a cost to freedom. That's why some are disappointed about the Hydra twist. While it was a very well-preserved twist and executed quite well, it also defanged the Cap v. S.H.I.E.L.D. conflict by revealing that the "Security" side was secretly being undermined by Nazis, which takes all the bite out of the discussion. The movie still tried to have its cake and eat it too by making Hydra into the Well Intentioned Extremists we were expecting from S.H.I.E.L.D., but it was a moot point. Any attempt at a real debate is lost the moment you associate one side of the debate with literal Nazis. It's hard to get more "obvious Strawman" than that.

MCU Hydra aren't Nazis. Other than that, I agree.

edited 12th Sep '16 8:50:55 AM by windleopard

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#62261: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:12:17 AM

What it doesn't do (because it doesn't want to) is saying where exactly one should draw the line.

I'd say having Fury be manipulated by an organization more evil than the Nazis and Natasha leaking SHIELD's secrets online as heroic is the movie telling us where the line should be drawn.

I think this article does a pretty good job of discussing Winter Soldier's flaws

https://themiddlespaces.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/captain-america-the-winter-soldier-as-liberal-fantasy-a-review/

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#62262: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:14:16 AM

'Still of Ghost Rider'

Well that looks terrible.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#62263: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:20:31 AM

and Falcon is right that there is a real danger that Superpowered people might end up in prison just for not agreeing to the party line.

Which is not what happens in the movie. Wanda ends up in prison because she aided in obstruction of justice.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62264: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:47:25 AM

'Still of Ghost Rider'
Well that looks terrible.
I think you mean terribly awesome.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#62265: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:53:59 AM

The fire looks good, the CG on the skull not so much. If they're gonna use Robbie they may as well use his sleek metallic skull design.

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#62266: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:54:10 AM

No, the skull looks a little too big for the body and the rest of him doesn't look metal enough. The jacket's too tame and the jeans and sneakers are just boring. The Rider should be metal from head to toe and needs a way more gritty setting than Ao S.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#62267: Sep 12th 2016 at 10:03:29 AM

I'm guessing you mean metal as in 'that concert was totally metal and awesome' and not metal as in Terminator (or 2099, I suppose). I do think that skull could be smaller and the flames more...dramatic? That could still happen, though. Flames do move, is the thing. I also wonder if this is going to be a good fit for AOS's tone, whether it's too light or whether this makes it darker. Guess we're about to find out.

edited 12th Sep '16 10:04:33 AM by Unsung

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#62268: Sep 12th 2016 at 10:12:56 AM

The skull looks like a fuckin' PS 1 game, holy Christ.

My various fanfics.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62269: Sep 12th 2016 at 10:16:10 AM

  • shrugs* I need to see it in movement...sometimes the most boring looking costumes really pop on screen (remember how off the first shots of Black Panther looked?) while the most awesome costumes suddenly look very, very silly in movement.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62270: Sep 12th 2016 at 10:17:25 AM

Interestingly apparently Wong wasn't going to be in the Strange movie initially, but they put him in because they didn't want there to be no Asian people in it after the Swinton casting.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62271: Sep 12th 2016 at 12:17:26 PM

It amuses me that they were forced to put in the actual legwork to make Wong a less racially problematic character due to having used up their gimmes handling their other racially problematic character.

On the other hand, I like this line:

we're bringing a middle-aged woman who's not 28 years old in leather pants into the Marvel Universe in a major role

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62272: Sep 12th 2016 at 12:26:18 PM

If nothing else you can't accuse Marvel of not having examined the problems thoroughly. We might not like the solution with which they came up, but there is no doubt that they tried very hard.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#62273: Sep 12th 2016 at 12:35:09 PM

[up][up]That's how I feel about it, as far as Tilda Swinton goes. I would like to see more Asian characters on the screen, but not if the only way that happens is for them to play wise old senseis and ninjas.

In fact, leaving Wong out was probably an attempt to *avoid* the problematic nature of having a Chinese valet, an Asian whose purpose is to sidekick for a white guy. And yet this movie does have some pretty phenomenal actors in its cast, so it's hard to fault some of those decisions entirely— Chiwetel Eijofor, Mads Mikkelsen, and Tilda Swinton all in the same movie? Under any other circumstances, I'd be nothing but enthusiastic.

[up]The situation is quite fraught. It's difficult to add many more characters of note to this kind of movie. Doctor Strange has always spent much of his time wandering the world alone, as wizards are wont to do.

edited 12th Sep '16 1:12:22 PM by Unsung

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62274: Sep 12th 2016 at 12:53:32 PM

That's basically what he says. He didn't want Wong in it because he thought the whole Asian manservant thing would seem offensive in 2016 (which to be fair, those old Strange comics are pretty fucking cringe worthy at times) but once they realized they were gonna have to use him, they came up with a way to work him in without being a stereotype.

Looks like Ben Barnes from the Chronicles of Narnia movies will be playing a villain in the Punisher Tv show.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#62275: Sep 12th 2016 at 12:56:25 PM

A video on temp music, highlighting the MCU specifically.

I think the video makes some good points about the over-pervasiveness of temp music influencing soundtracks, but it needs more to say on why more classic soundtracks like its initial examples (Star Wars, Harry Potter, James Bond) stay memorable. Sure, most can remember the Harry Potter theme, but how many themes can one remember from Harry Potter besides the main one? With Star Wars, at least, more people remember stuff besides the opening theme; The Force theme and the Imperial March are also well known.

edited 12th Sep '16 12:59:25 PM by Tuckerscreator


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