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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62226: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:08:20 PM

But has anyone even considered that maybe those themes were all in our heads and they weren't what the film was about? I'm not gonna say one's interpretation of the film is wrong, but sometimes a work can have one intention in mind and people will draw a different one out of it.

edited 11th Sep '16 7:08:33 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62227: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:10:52 PM

You just answered your own question. The ones still arguing about it just had a different interpretation of the film.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62228: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:11:50 PM

My question is whether anyone on here has considered it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62229: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:13:48 PM

Why would that matter if they want to discuss it anyway? You can say that about anything fictional.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62230: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:16:07 PM

I'm not trying to say they shouldn't discuss it because of any political commentary that may or may not be effective. Like, I'm perfectly fine with that and I love looking at how others interpret it. I'm just wondering if anybody on here interpreted the movie similar to how I interpreted it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#62231: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:16:34 PM

[up]x5 I'm personally not a fan of saying that we shouldn't analyze something in regards to certain themes because that wasn't what the creator(s) intended it to be about.

For one thing, we always know when that's the case. Secondly, loads of people can have very different interpretations of the work - including the authors - and that doesn't make any of them less valid - Applicability, basically.

We can debate which interpretations are valid, but I don't think it's helpful to dismiss one out of hand just because you personally didn't see it that way.

edited 11th Sep '16 7:17:07 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62232: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:17:20 PM

I'm not trying to dismiss it. I keep saying I'm not trying to dismiss it, I'm just saying has anyone considered another interpretation.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#62233: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:19:11 PM

Maybe. I guess "all in our heads" kind of has connotations against analysis, which rubs people the wrong way.

What did you think it was about?

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62234: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:21:27 PM

I just thought it was a political thriller with no major messages to it. I admit my "all in our heads" comment wasn't the best choice, however. I'd meant it to be in reference to one's personal interpretation of the film, not to say that the film isn't actually about any political messages.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#62235: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:24:53 PM

Well, I don't really know what to say to that.

I mean, I mean no offense, but for me, it pretty blatantly had something to say, so the idea that it wasn't trying to say anything is...well, it's hard to respond to.

I mean, it's not much of an interpretation, is it?

edited 11th Sep '16 7:25:23 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#62236: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:25:08 PM

I dunno, I thought the question of security vs safety was discussed so transparently in the film to the point it was hard for me to ignore.

I can understand why some feel the HYDRA twist cheapens the discussion since having one side be neo-fascists makes it pretty lopsided. It isn't even really so much a debate so much as a message, which is that you shouldn't compromise people's freedoms because it opens up room for abuse. It's simple, but compared to a lot of Marvel movies I thought pulling off a simple message about a topical subject was something to be praised.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62237: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:26:41 PM

That's another thing I was confused about. People keep calling it a debate when the only actual debate is between Cap and Fury at the beginning. I get there's a message to it, but saying it's a debate is kind of a stretch, in my opinion.

[up][up]

I'm really tired and couldn't go into more detail, my apologies.

edited 11th Sep '16 7:27:11 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Cross (Don’t ask)
#62238: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:28:25 PM

Some people say it wasn't really a debate.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#62239: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:30:22 PM

I agree, it isn't necessarily a debate. Of course, I don't think that it was really under any obligation to be a debate, so I'm fine with that. I mean, if you disagree with a position, I think you can say "I disagree with this position" and move on.

And don't worry man, it's all good.

Oh God! Natural light!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62240: Sep 11th 2016 at 11:50:00 PM

When The Winter Soldier was released, the NSA Affair was in full swing and Germany had just shown the US the middle finger for taking their spying at least two steps too far. The Winter Soldier doesn't really hit the audience over the head with it, but the implications of project Insight are terrifying. Fury is using the argument politicians use again and again in order to loosen up privacy rights and allowing more surveillance, that this will allow them to find dangers faster and protect everyone else. Steve rightly points out that this is holding a gun at everyone and calling it peace, meaning they are fighting the symptoms instead of removing the original problem. Pierce brings this to the last terrifying consequence. So The Winter Soldiers "this is a slippery slope" message is very obvious. What it doesn't do (because it doesn't want to) is saying where exactly one should draw the line. It's not a bait and switch, Pierce being Hydra doesn't change the original argument that Fury nearly went too far by creating a system which would have endangered billions in an attempt to flush out a few bad apples.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62241: Sep 11th 2016 at 11:51:50 PM

I just thought it was a political thriller with no major messages to it.
That's the thing though: all political thrillers have messages in them. That's why they are political thrillers instead of just regular thrillers, because they have to do with certain politics. A good example of this is Enemy of the State — it is ostensibly a thriller with Will Smith, but it also involves the politics of surveillance and the security state.

The line between what's a thriller and what's a political thriller can be very thin, however. For example: is The Conversation a political thriller because it deals with surveillance? Or is it just a regular thriller because it doesn't ask any questions about said surveillance and doesn't involve the government?

The Winter Soldier is, ostensibly, about Captain America trying to figure out his place in the modern world. Project Insight is there as a kind of representation of "modern" warfare — able to take out targets before they become a danger to others. But, as Cap says, "This isn't freedom, it's fear," i.e. Freedom is better than Security. But then it turns out that Project Insight and SHIELD were really Hydra the whole time, so it's more like "Freedom is better than Evil Fascism" which wasn't the original debate that the movie presented.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62242: Sep 11th 2016 at 11:59:38 PM

[up] I would agree if the movie went for Fury's solution, which is to find a way to flush out Hydra out of Shield. But that's not what happens, they take Shield down, too, though the idea is not that Shield was bad from the get go, the idea is that the organisation has been twisted into something which serves the enemy more than the people, because the leader of it was too paranoid for the job.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#62243: Sep 12th 2016 at 12:01:25 AM

[up] They present it as if all of SHIELD needs to go because it's too infested with Hydra.

And, if we go by Agents of SHIELD, they actually did go with Fury's route, they just didn't tell Cap. And SHIELD was an illegal organization for a few years, but with the Sokovia Accords, they are back to being legitimate.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62244: Sep 12th 2016 at 12:04:38 AM

[up] No, they didn't. Shield was taken down, Coulson and his team was supposed to create a new, a better shield. Ao S should have handled some aspects of it better (for example by clarifying what is different about the new shield a little bit better - aside from getting rid of the levels), but they are doing what Peggy said, sometimes you just have to start anew.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#62245: Sep 12th 2016 at 12:10:04 AM

The movie doesn't land on one side of the debate or the other and doesn't want to— there's a reason why Nick Fury starts the movie ostensibly on Pierce's side. I don't think it's a bait and switch because I don't think the movie's point is that freedom versus security can be as simple as 'Well Captain America is saying it so it must be right, or at least the filmmakers must think so,' which is what you'd get if SHIELD *didn't* turn out to be a front for Hydra.

Fury's story about his grandfather and Pierce's story about the embassy in Bogota appeal to the rational and pragmatic. Steve argues towards ideals, to the aspirational and yes, emotional. That constant balancing act between what's right and what's reasonable form a large part of what the Captain America movies are about, and Civil War shows they're not unwilling to show the flaws in Cap's side of things. Even if they do still want to believe that his old-fashioned ideals— freedom, justice, a certain forthrightness overall— do still work and are worth fighting for.

The way I took Winter Soldier, that slippery slope doesn't only apply to the surveillance state or culture of fear. How many other tyrannical regimes started out with the best intentions, be they fascist, communist, anarchist or otherwise?

edited 12th Sep '16 12:37:12 AM by Unsung

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#62246: Sep 12th 2016 at 12:45:55 AM

I've seen the same complaint about Civil War; that it starts out as a fight over one thing and then switches to something else, That is, from 'who watches the watchers?' to 'what to do about Bucky?'. I just thought of a neat way they could've avoided that.

The Avengers Initiative was a SHIELD project, right? Let's look at what SHIELD stands for: Strategic Homeland Intervention Enforcement and Logistics Division. That tells me that after the great Shieldragate clusterfuck of 2014, everything SHIELD was responsible for -including the Avengers- should have been rolled into the Department of Homeland Security. They've done it before; that's how INS (Immigration and Naturalization Services) became ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement).

So instead of fighting over who, if anyone, the Avengers answer to, it could've been about Bucky from the start if that was the story they wanted to tell. For Steve, at least. For the others it would've been more 'what do you do when you have to choose between following the law and doing the right thing?'.

And there still could've been non-Bucky related conflict. Maybe the events of Lagos still play out the same way, only the rift starts with Steve getting his jimmies rustled when DHS tries to throw Wanda under the bus to appease public outcry (which is bs; she didn't set that bomb off, she just failed to contain the blast. Taking action against her would be like charging firefighters with arson when they fail to stop a building from burning down). Bonus points for him finding out about the Raft and suspecting it's just a ploy to get her in there where they could do anything to her -like experimenting on her to figure out her powers and recreate them; with someone like Ross involved, it's possible. You could even have some Steve-Tony drama before the events with Bucky kick off. Let's say someone slipped Steve some more intel. Like specs for a prototype of the restraint collar they ultimately put on Wanda. I think we all know what Steve would think about putting something like that on a human being. He goes to Tony... and finds out Tony already knows, because he's the one who designed it. Tony's reasoning is that they're dealing with more and more powered individuals, and they have to have a way to keep them restrained while they're in custody. Steve might not have a counter argument ready at that moment, but he wouldn't really accept it. There's the start of that relationship falling apart. Bonus points for them having another argument and Steve admitting out loud that no, he doesn't really trust Tony anymore; not after Ultron.

They could even have some lighter moments. I can see Ross having a confrontation with Steve and basically saying "Fall in line, or else" and Steve stepping up to him, getting right in his face, and calmly saying "You know, the previous Secretary of Defense called me into his office and threatened me once. It didn't go so well for him." The previous Secretary being Alexander Pierce. Not an overt threat, but definitely a clear 'fuck you'.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62247: Sep 12th 2016 at 1:33:10 AM

I actually like that Civil War doesn't argue about theories, but shows the practical applications of a system. It shows on the one hand how right Steve is when he points out that the Accords might bring the Avengers into a situation in which they feel that they have to go somewhere to prevent a catastrophe, and Falcon is right that there is a real danger that Superpowered people might end up in prison just for not agreeing to the party line. But on the other hand it also shows that the Avengers can fail, that they might pick revenge over justice in specific situation and that the lack of accountability for them is a problem, especially in the eyes of people who loose a loved one due to their mistakes.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62248: Sep 12th 2016 at 3:10:31 AM

https://unshavedmouse.com/2016/09/12/nothings-been-the-same-since-new-york/

Unshavedmouse, already known between animation fans for his great reviews of animated movies, is currently tackling the Marvel movie...and has now reached Ironman 3. Some great observations there...I especially love the remark that the War machine armour is a slut.

PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#62249: Sep 12th 2016 at 4:18:28 AM

Yeah, I like The Winter Soldier a lot but this has always bothered me. The movie starts out with a critique of modern surveillance-based warfare but then the movie gets cold feet and basically says, "Nah, Western governments aren't to blame, an Evil Nazi Death Cult made them do it." Again, a good movie, it just gets a bit confused over what message its trying to deliver.

Civil War does something similar, in that it starts with one issue and then moves on to something else, but I actually liked that a lot. Friends don't fight each other to the death over abstract political issues; it makes perfect sense to make the final conflict more personal for Cap and Tony by bringing in Bucky and Tony's parents.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62250: Sep 12th 2016 at 4:40:01 AM

I guess I see Hydra not really like a political organisation, but a physical manifestation of a particular mind-set which is present in all of us....it's a very German perspective, though, so that might not be the intention...

BTW, Jessica Jones got an emmy for it's title music...not that the Emmys are as prestigious as a Peabody award, but it is a nice nod (I initially didn't like the music at all, but I have come to the conclusion that it is somehow the perfect fit for the show).


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