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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62201: Sep 10th 2016 at 6:53:14 PM

Is there any source for this? This is the first I'm hearing of it.

The closest thing I've seen was this quote where the Russos talked about how much of a hassle it is to arrange the film.

You'll do movie one in the morning, and then movie two in the afternoon," Mc Feely said in a podcast. "It's because there are so many movie stars. Like the scheduling has got to be a nightmare. You can't just say 'Benedict Cumberbatch' - or whoever - 'come to Atlanta for nine months.' You know. It can't work that way."

I'm certain he will be in the movie (as I'm certain pretty much everybody will be in the movie) but I haven't seen any source about him being a main character or playing a major role in the plot.

edited 10th Sep '16 6:55:47 PM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62202: Sep 10th 2016 at 10:39:40 PM

Let's just say that it is a good thing that the shooting for Sherlock will be done by the time Infinity war is on the schedule...the bad thing is that it will most likely takes ages again until he has time for season 5.

Also, Infinity War 2 (or however it will be called) will be the cleanest ever considering how much time they have for post.

Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Ramen Fairy
#62204: Sep 11th 2016 at 8:38:40 AM

RDJ has arrived in Atlanta for Homecoming filming.

Peace is the only battle worth waging.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#62206: Sep 11th 2016 at 11:57:18 AM

Finally at least some promotion....

but honestly, they are a little bit too interested in luring new watchers to the show. A little bit reassurance towards the actual fanbase that this will still the show we love wouldn't be amiss....

Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Ramen Fairy
#62207: Sep 11th 2016 at 12:42:50 PM

I was wondering earlier… could Infinity War and/or its sequel make $2 billion worldwide? If any Marvel film will ever make that much, it would be one of those (Avatar, Titanic & The Force Awakens are currently the only films that reached $2 billion). It's a long shot, but who knows.

edited 11th Sep '16 12:47:38 PM by Spinosegnosaurus77

Peace is the only battle worth waging.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#62208: Sep 11th 2016 at 1:43:08 PM

I guess? Anything's possible.

[up][up]At this point the hardcore fans are gonna watch it no matter what. They're probably playing Ghost Rider and the superhero element so heavily now to try and bring in new viewers since the ratings got really bad last year.

edited 11th Sep '16 1:43:43 PM by comicwriter

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62209: Sep 11th 2016 at 5:30:33 PM

So am I the only person who never really registered any kind of political subtext in Winter Soldier that a lot of people have brought up and debated before?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#62210: Sep 11th 2016 at 5:56:03 PM

Which ones? Lots of other works like Minority Report and Psycho Pass did the whole precrime thing already, but it did come out just as the whole Snowden and PRISM controversy popped up. So Sitwell and Zola's schtick about being able to predict people's futures from their pasts got a lot of eyes peeled.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62211: Sep 11th 2016 at 5:59:42 PM

Like, there's this whole theme people keep talking about in Winter Soldier of it being a debate over government supervision and surveillance, and some people accuse it of being a debate and switch. All this puzzles me because, from my perspective, I've never seen it as that. I see it as a damn good political thriller with bits of espionage mixed in.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62212: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:17:37 PM

The argument hinges on whether you think HYDRA being SHIELD the whole time weakened the debate or not. I personally never thought it did.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62213: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:19:09 PM

I get that. What I'm saying is that I never noticed there was a debate in the first place over it. I mean, outside of Cap arguing with Fury about Project Insight, and even then I didn't see it as much of a debate because they barely discuss it from there.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62214: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:21:32 PM

Oh, well that's the usual around here. Some people take up thing introduced in any media and discuss it on more depth than that media.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#62215: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:23:41 PM

That's where the Debate and Switch comes from. Trailers heavily played up the ideological conflict between Fury and Rogers, masking Hydra's involvement by creating the impression that the movie was actually going to be about Cap and S.H.I.E.L.D. coming to blows over the latter's authoritarian measures towards ensuring absolute security at a cost to freedom.

That's why some are disappointed about the Hydra twist. While it was a very well-preserved twist and executed quite well, it also defanged the Cap v. S.H.I.E.L.D. conflict by revealing that the "Security" side was secretly being undermined by Nazis, which takes all the bite out of the discussion.

The movie still tried to have its cake and eat it too by making Hydra into the Well Intentioned Extremists we were expecting from S.H.I.E.L.D., but it was a moot point. Any attempt at a real debate is lost the moment you associate one side of the debate with literal Nazis. It's hard to get more "obvious Strawman" than that.

edited 11th Sep '16 6:25:41 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62216: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:26:55 PM

Uh, Hydra aren't "literally" Nazis. They came from a Nazi group which outgrew Hitler's ideals, but they aren't "literally" Nazis. Pet peeve of mine, apologies.

Outside of that, I kind of take the trailers as one of those "never trust a trailer" things.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#62217: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:27:27 PM

Neo-Fascists. HYDRA is made of Neo-Fascists.

And well, the debate itself is present in the movie. It just isn't verbally debated between the characters a great deal, but things like Widow wiki-leaking the SHIELD files being presented as a very good thing and the movie's solution to the conflict being getting rid of SHIELD altogether rather than reforming it poses questions when compared to real world issues with the CIA, for example.

I think the HYDRA twist doesn't really weaken the conflict as much as tweaks it. It is meant to signal how far can great men fall in their search for security in modern times. Alexander Pierce is where we see this the most, the man who seeks peace and order going so far to it that he becomes a neo-fascist willing to do whatever it takes it.

edited 11th Sep '16 6:27:55 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Cross (Don’t ask)
#62218: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:28:29 PM

So we're still running with HYDRA being Nazis?[nja]

edited 11th Sep '16 6:29:03 PM by Cross

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62219: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:28:31 PM

But when Widow leaked the SHIELD files, that gave Zemo ample opportunity to use them for his revenge scheme.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62220: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:29:47 PM

Guys, no one cares about the distinction. If they did, you'd know.

edited 11th Sep '16 6:30:19 PM by VeryMelon

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#62221: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:30:39 PM

The files end up having more complex rammifications in following movies and tv shows, but within the context of the Winter Soldier itself, which we're talking about here, it is viewed as a unambiguously heroic action. And even with the benefit of hindsight, it's still heroic.

And people caring about the distinctions between Nazism and Neo-Fascism or not, I will never stop correcting because mischaracterizing one as the other doesn't help any discussion.

edited 11th Sep '16 6:31:48 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#62222: Sep 11th 2016 at 6:59:51 PM

The Nazi-fascist divide matters a lot when it comes to applying the themes to modern geopolitics, especially with countries with majority people who don't line up with Nazi ideals, such as the multicultural US (in theory), parts of Europe, and Asian countries. E.g. I came across an argument that whatever Freudian Excuse Fury has from being black makes it OK for him to be Lawful Evil because at least he's still not a Nazi and can't ever be for obvious reasons, and Steve is an idiot for arguing with him against Insight because as a white man he didn't grow up under the same pressures and it's presumptuous of him to impose his beliefs on Fury like that. And the counterargument being that HYDRA are fascists rather than Nazis, and Fury's position as an arm of the US government, which holds a lot of power on the international level, means he's actually in a position of high privilege and an actor for fascist interests.

However, regardless of whatever merits it might have as a character analysis for the conflict between the two as individuals, and it is genuinely interesting food for thought when it comes to how Fury's life experiences affected his philosophy and how it got him to where he was in the movie, it neglects the fact that as the case of Zimbabwe and China show, fascists and authoritarians can come in any color. Especially China, where various political bloggers have noted the parallels between SHIELDRA and the CCP. A comparison that wouldn't work as well if they were viewed as actual Nazis.

edited 11th Sep '16 7:12:39 PM by AlleyOop

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#62223: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:01:29 PM

[up][up][up] I remember Agents of SHIELD made a pretty funny joke out of the attempted distinction once.

edited 11th Sep '16 7:03:32 PM by KnownUnknown

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#62224: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:02:03 PM

Either way, none of this even is about what my statement was, which was that I didn't even notice these themes in the film and yet people make such a big deal over them.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#62225: Sep 11th 2016 at 7:06:57 PM

Well some did, and it's discussed so much because some thought it didn't do a good enough job on its own.

edited 11th Sep '16 7:07:11 PM by VeryMelon


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