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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#61927: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:13:01 AM

I can see why this was cut because it would muck up the pacing and most of it is already shown without the need to tell, but nice fleshing out of T'Challa here. So Bucky was gonna get extradited to Wakanda. And probably be executed there, too.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#61928: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:24:38 AM

We knew Bucky was going to be extradited to Wakanda. Part of Tony's olive-branch to Steve after he was arrested was that they could retroactively sanction his mission in Bucharest if he signed the Accords, allowing them to keep Bucky as an Avengers prisoner instead of letting him be taken to Wakanda to face their brand of justice.

As things stand, Bucky was brought in by German special forces and Steve is also under arrest for interfering with an international police operation. But if they can say, "No, Steve was totes there on behalf of the Avengers," then they can turn around and go, "Which makes Bucky OUR prisoner, not YOURS. This was totes our op, and YOU got in OUR way, not the other way around."

Jurisdictional squabbling was Bucky's best hope for a fair trial.

edited 30th Aug '16 11:28:01 AM by TobiasDrake

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61930: Aug 30th 2016 at 1:21:04 PM

I wonder if the scene was suppose to be before or after Tony talked to Steve....that would change the context considerably.

Anyway, it is confirmation for what I already suspected, that they were about to give Bucky to a person they KNOW planned to kill him. A...holes. And poor Bucky.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#61931: Aug 30th 2016 at 1:38:18 PM

Yes, they were planning to turn over an accused murderer with a rap sheet of assassinations and espionage as long as the Bible over to the nation whose monarch he stands accused of murdering so that he could be tried and sentenced in their court of law. Those fiends!

Remembering that at this time, nobody thinks Bucky's innocent except Cap, who only believes that because of nepotism. Even his friends think he's a bit off his rocker. Tony's olive branch was never about setting Bucky free or clearing his name, it was about keeping him out of the Wakandan court so he could serve out a sentence that doesn't have "death" at the start of it.

edited 30th Aug '16 1:38:46 PM by TobiasDrake

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#61933: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:15:14 PM

who only believes that because of nepotism.

Cap knows Bucky saved his life at the end of TWS. The last he remembers, he was falling to the river from a crashing helicarrier after the Winter Soldier took an unexpectedly long time to deal a killing blow. Then he's told he was found on the bank of the river, not in it drowned and crushed by debris. So to him, he has experience that Bucky is still in there.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#61934: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:22:33 PM

[up]But no actual proof of his innocence.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#61935: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:31:01 PM

And being brainwashed is his whole thing, so... Cap is *hoping* Bucky is innocent. He knows he might not be, and he does it anyway because Bucky's the last thread left of his old life.

He turns out to be right, because superhero movie, but yeah. Not really about proving Bucky's innocence as much as it is about saving his life. Because never mind getting Bucky his day in court, if he gets into a head-on fight with those German troops, chances are he'll just end up getting killed while they're trying to bring him in— if not by the troops, then by someone super when the fight inevitably escalates.

This is partly about saving Bucky from himself, too. IIRC, there are a few times when Bucky just wants to give himself up, and he's not past walking into his own certain death if it means achieving a portion of Redemption Equals Death for his past sins.

So yeah, poor Bucky for all that, but the authorities/pro-reg team in this situation are doing the best they can with what they know. Cap is taking a massive gamble here.

edited 30th Aug '16 2:39:38 PM by Unsung

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61936: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:49:28 PM

Let's put it from the top: 1. Bucky is Po W who was brainwashed for decades. This makes him the responsibility of the US. 2. The actual bombing happened in Vienna, not Wakanda, and there were multiple victims. So if you want to put him on trial, you need to do it where the crime actually happened...unless you want to put him on trial for being the Winter Soldier in the first place. Then you have a list of countries who might want a piece of them. 3. We are talking about giving the prisoner to a ruler who is out for revenge, not Justice.

So no, nothing about this is even remotely "okay".

edited 30th Aug '16 2:51:11 PM by Swanpride

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61937: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:04:44 PM

Thing is also there is proof that Bucky was brainwashed, namely the files Natasha gave to Steve at the end of The Winter Soldier, so even if he has lost his mind - the whole POW aspect still applies. They basically all know that he's not responsible for the crimes he committed as the Winter Soldier, the only things they don't know is if he's too broken to function normally, if he's so far gone that he's now taken up murdering as a hobby by himself, or if someone is basically using him again like HYDRA. I basically had the feeling that the UN would have liked to have him off their hands because he meant too many complications - as Swanpride says, there are way too many people who could feel they should be prosecuting him, etc, etc - so they wouldn't have minded if he had been killed while being apprehended.

edited 30th Aug '16 3:05:53 PM by hollygoolightly

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#61938: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:50:39 PM

The country he is being extradited to also has access to an insanely valuable commodity that I'm sure whatever counter terrorism agency Ross is a part of would love to have access to.

And of course, he didn't just kill some random guy. He killed the head of state of a wealthy first world nation. I'm sure if some professional assassin killed a bunch of other people and then also shot the American President the U.S. would likely have a lot of pull in getting access to him.

edited 30th Aug '16 3:52:19 PM by comicwriter

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#61939: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:52:50 PM

[up][up][up]

  1. He's not in US custody, though. Or is he? I'm not entirely clear. I would assume it's a bit hazy in and of itself.
  2. Foreign dignitary (and king, in this case) probably trumps any others present. Unfair? Maybe, but that's diplomacy for you. Not saying they should hand him over just like that, but they didn't— they were negotiating. Procedures were being followed.
  3. You could argue that of almost any court in any country, under these circumstances. Wakanda is still a constitutional monarchy (as I understand it), and as long as T'Challa doesn't preside over the court himself, it's a little much to assume they're not capable of bringing an impartial verdict.

edited 30th Aug '16 4:22:36 PM by Unsung

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61940: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:08:38 PM

[up] I guess technically he would be in German custody, but that doesn't really make a difference when it comes to this specific point, since Bucky's status as Po W and American Citizen makes him the responsibility of the US...and we KNOW that the option of delivering him to the US was on the table, because Tony offered it to Steve. So obviously the US could claim him, but decides not to do so. And I don't care what the reasons are, this is just wrong!

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#61941: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:12:36 PM

The option of delivering him to the U.S. was only on the table if they could retroactively sanction Cap's mission in Bucharest. That was a conditional option.

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61942: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:14:25 PM

[up] If the deal hinges on the presence of an Avengers who signed the accords, I think Rhodey would be good enough.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#61943: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:27:43 PM

Rhodey wasn't interfering with the operation. Or, to our knowledge, part of the op. He was barely even present - only showing up once Cap and Panther had already escalated the situation, in order to de-escalate it so the GSG-9 could do their jobs. There's no reason to assume Rhodey's extremely small level of involvement would carry the same weight as Cap's.

Even if it did, there's not really any reason to obstruct Wakanda's claim to Bucky. Everyone thinks he's guilty as sin. Stark only threw it out there as incentive for Cap to sign. Cap doesn't get the olive branch if he's not willing to do his part.

edited 30th Aug '16 4:28:31 PM by TobiasDrake

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Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
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#61944: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:28:28 PM

...Just occurred to me. I know I said German myself earlier, but this being Vienna, that would equal *Austrian* troops, right? My bad.

Yeah, it's a dick move hanging Bucky out to dry knowing that he was brainwashed, but it also affords a degree of plausible deniability (was he *really* brainwashed?), and he's been an enemy spy, a Russian Hydra agent for decades, so it is a big ask to say that he's the USA's legal responsibility. Moral responsibility, sure, but this is politics. People have been thrown under a bus for a lot less than murdering however many foreign citizens died in Vienna, which, at this point, they still believe he did. Even if he *was* coerced, snatching him out of Wakanda's waiting hands would be a gigantic international incident.

They were playing for time— time Steve didn't think Bucky had. Was he right? Hard to say. Impossible to know, now.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#61945: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:29:52 PM

They were German troops. It was, specifically, the GSG-9.

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Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#61946: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:32:14 PM

Shows what I know. Okay, good.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61947: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:33:49 PM

See, and that is why we need more people like Cap, Falcon and Peggy Carter, who do what is right instead of what is easy, no matter what.

And yes, Falcon was very specific that is was "German special forces" who apprehended Bucky, and he was brought to Berlin, so he was either in German custody, or in American custody as favour.

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#61948: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:35:32 PM

Respecting the rule of law and a nation's right to convict criminals is both.

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PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
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#61949: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:35:32 PM

But why does Wakanda get him at all? He killed the King of Wakanda (or so they thought), sure, but the crime was perpetrated in Vienna.

edited 30th Aug '16 4:35:51 PM by PhiSat

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61950: Aug 30th 2016 at 4:40:47 PM

[up] Exactly. You have a crime with multiple victims from multiple countries which is supposedly committed on the soil of Austria by an American Po W with brainwashing issues, who is now in German custody with American representatives calling the shots for whatever reason after he got apprehended in Hungary. Nothing in this constructs says "yeah, we can just give this guy to Wakanda", unless it is to curry favour with its new King.


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