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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#61776: Aug 23rd 2016 at 11:07:24 PM

But the Vision was able to pick it up and he doesn't even have blood.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#61777: Aug 23rd 2016 at 11:21:11 PM

If the MCU is anything like the comics (and the fact that it is is part of what makes it so good), then Cap probably could have lifted the hammer, but once he realized he could, seeing Thor's face, he didn't. Because Steve Rogers is just that nice a guy. WMG, but the comics do offer precedent (he's wielded Mjolnir at least once).

The Vision lifting Mjolnir is obviously shorthand to indicate that he is 'worthy', with the possible implication that the reason he's worthy is *because* of Thor and the hammer's role in his creation. A good man wielding a hammer of good brought to life a robot who was also good.

Although just lifting the hammer might not be the same as wielding it. Guess we'll find out at some point.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#61778: Aug 23rd 2016 at 11:24:32 PM

Yeah, Steve did almost seem to be pantomiming a strain.

I mean, yes, they're actors, they're all pantomiming, but Chris Evans was doing it even moreso.

My various fanfics.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61779: Aug 23rd 2016 at 11:29:48 PM

It is also possible that Cap would usually be able to lift it, but not in this very specific situation, because he didn't want to do it for "noble reasons" but in a petty contest.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#61780: Aug 24th 2016 at 6:43:36 AM

Alternatively, Steve just couldn't lift it because he's not worthy by Asgardian standards, since he can't get drunk.

edited 24th Aug '16 6:43:53 AM by ultimatepheer

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#61781: Aug 24th 2016 at 7:32:41 AM

I figured he didn't match the Asgardian version of Worthy - sort of in-universe values dissonance. Odin's charm on the hammer specifies the power of Thor i.e., the prince of Asgard and one day it's ruler. To be worthy of not just general power but Thor's power specifically would mean a wise and just ruler - and ruling in general outside of a military style chain-of-command is something Steve has issues with - the MCU version especially so.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#61782: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:05:23 AM

It's a shame we never got to see if Ultron can lift Mjolnir. It would put to rest the question, "Can Vision lift Mjolnir because he's Worthy or because he's a robot?"

The scene in question has Vision wowing everyone with his Worthiness but the end of the movie defangs it by having Tony and Steve point out that if you put the hammer on an elevator and the elevator goes up, that doesn't mean the elevator's Worthy. The film ends with the question unanswered.

In the comics, robots can lift Mjolnir without problem because the enchantment doesn't consider them to be people at all. Like the hypothetical elevator or Jane Foster's coatrack, they're aren't considered a "Who", but rather a "What".

It's not clear if this is the case here, because Mjolnir has only ever been handled by a sample size of one robot. It's never been touched by a robot who is explicitly Unworthy, nor by a robot who failed to lift it. So its meaning is uncertain.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:06:29 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#61783: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:13:25 AM

I personally believe that Steve is unworthy because he's unwilling to stop fighting people. Being a Blood Knight is his big character flaw in the MCU and I don't think it's a trait Thor shares after becoming worthy.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:13:46 AM by Kostya

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#61784: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:18:43 AM

[up]Steve is more of a Blood Knight than Thor (a viking god)? In a way, that's kind of impressive.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:20:07 AM by nervmeister

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#61785: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:19:28 AM

Um remember that scene after the opening fight with HYDRA where Steve is in full boisterous warrior mode congratulating Bruce on killing so many people?

I don't mean this sarcastically, and I do think the movie did suggest that Steve was unworthy (whether temporarily or permanently) for that reason. And I think you could distinguish between "endlessly fighting" and "enjoying a fight" to some extent. But if being a Blood Knight was a disqualifier, it would disqualify Thor and every other Asgardian.

Semi- [nja]

edited 24th Aug '16 8:19:45 AM by Hodor2

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#61786: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:20:01 AM

Thor was a massive Blood Knight in the first thor film, but his entire character arc is about letting go off that. And unlike Steve, Thor seems to stay very well in peace time.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#61787: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:25:06 AM

Maybe Blood Knight is the wrong term. My point is that Steve doesn't feel happy unless he's fighting and saving the world. This much is clear. Contrast that with Thor who would probably be fine with retiring and ruling Asgard if the realms were at peace.

Edit: Metaphorically speaking you become worthy of the hammer when you're willing to put it down.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:26:02 AM by Kostya

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#61788: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:30:51 AM

In the comics, robots can lift Mjolnir without problem because the enchantment doesn't consider them to be people at all. Like the hypothetical elevator or Jane Foster's coatrack, they're aren't considered a "Who", but rather a "What".
Just a note: this was established back in the Silver Age, when Mr. Hyde grabbed Thor's hammer with a machine, but it's been inconsistent since (just like all the various powers Mjolnir had in the Silver Age, including traveling through time and magnetic manipulation).

In the modern age, however, Mjolnir's specific magic has outgrown Odin himself, so that when Thor became unworthy to wield the hammer, even Odin couldn't move it. It's now implied that the hammer is alive and specifically chose Jane Foster to become the next wielder.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#61789: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:32:56 AM

I never liked these patchworks around the Hammer's magic. I also hate how Magneto sometimes lifts the hammer with his powers because it's made of metal (because that implies THE MIGHTY SPELL can be negated by something as basic as a fucking magnet)

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#61790: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:35:09 AM

[up]That's only in the Ultimate Universe where the hammer has no enchantments. You just have to be physically strong enough to lift

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#61791: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:35:26 AM

[up][up]Blame all those who love to put Thor through The Worf Effect. I mean, at one point, Red Hulk wielded the hammer because (get this) he was in space and therefore there was no gravity.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:35:45 AM by alliterator

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#61793: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:37:57 AM

[up][up]And that's just plain ignorance of science. Like how during Avengers vs X-Men, there were polar bears in Antarctica, Phoenix Colossus gave legs to whales, and Phoenix Cyclops thought it was a good idea to seal the planet fault lines to prevent earthquakes

edited 24th Aug '16 8:38:28 AM by NoName999

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#61794: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:38:52 AM

Phoenix Cyclops thought it was a good idea to seal the planet fault lines to prevent earthquakes
THAT'S NOT HOW PLATE TECTONICS WORKS. THAT WOULD JUST MAKE EVERYTHING WORSE, GODDAMMIT.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#61795: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:40:02 AM

[up][up][up][up]But could he use the hammer's unique power set? Loophole Abuse may allow you to physically manipulate the hammer, but summoning lightning and the like is still off limits to the unworthy. And Thor could probably still troll the not-quite-wielder with his magical/telekinetic link to it.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:45:27 AM by nervmeister

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#61796: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:55:32 AM

I don't really see the problem with lifting the Hammer in space. "No gravity in space" is a bit of a fundamental misunderstanding, but there's no inertia in space. An object like the Hammer would continue just going in the direction it was going until acted upon by another force to move its—

Okay, I see the problem. Mjolnir would be a perpetual comet rather than embedded in rock or permanently placed on the ground, but the same rules about changing its course should apply.

This really has more to do with how, like, 90% of writers don't understand how space works than misunderstanding Mjolnir.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:56:33 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#61797: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:59:03 AM

But those who aren't worthy shouldn't be able to change Mjolnir's course. Wouldn't that qualify as "lifting" it? So Mjolnir in space should just continue to go in the same direction as always.

edited 24th Aug '16 9:01:44 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#61799: Aug 24th 2016 at 9:21:44 AM

[up][up] Exactly. Hence, perpetual comet.

I can see where the logic for "You can lift Mjolnir in space" would come from but it's one of those things that only makes sense until you actually sit down and think about it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#61800: Aug 24th 2016 at 9:25:16 AM

Magic hammer has a different set of rules than the real world, which is why I didn't like Red Hulk moving it at all.


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