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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#61726: Aug 22nd 2016 at 7:36:53 PM

He also never once tries to claim he was brainwashed or controlled in Thor: The Dark World.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61727: Aug 22nd 2016 at 7:59:03 PM

Then again, he might realistically think no one would buy it.

Brainwashed or not, does he do anything he wouldn't normally do? Are any of his actions in The Avengers out of character?

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#61728: Aug 22nd 2016 at 8:01:53 PM

Straight up trying to deathtrap Thor (instead of, at the very least, making an event out of it) could be considered out of character for him, given that even in his own series he doesn't much seem to actually want Thor dead until really pushed, but it's not that far out of his tendencies to do so, and I always figured he didn't actually think it would work and was just doing it to be a dick.

edited 22nd Aug '16 8:03:04 PM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#61729: Aug 22nd 2016 at 8:09:45 PM

His dialogue in the scene kinda supports the "being a dick" interpretation.

  • Loki: The humans think us immortal. Should we test that?

Loki's really playful with the Hulk-cage once Thor's in it, but he doesn't get very far before Coulson interrupts. Then he kills Coulson, Thor screams in anguish, all the fun of the moment is gone, and Loki just hits the button.

Loki's an egotistical showman. He probably had a whole speech prepared for this moment, but Coulson stole his thunder and then having to kill Coulson ruined the tone.

edited 22nd Aug '16 8:10:16 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#61730: Aug 22nd 2016 at 8:11:34 PM

He doesn't necessarily have to realize he'd been meddled with.

I imagine the scepter had a more subtle effect on him, manipulating his existing ambition and steering him to work toward Thanos's objective yet believe it was all his idea, rather than outright brainwash him into acting out of character. It'd explain why he was suddenly interested in taking the Earth and giving the Tesseract to Thanos, when he probably couldn't care less about either of those objects previously, and making grandiose speeches about control and "having his eyes opened".

He still retains agency and is still responsible for his heinous crimes, but it does explain some character inconsistencies and I think that's what they were going for, personally.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#61731: Aug 22nd 2016 at 10:47:13 PM

Given the effect the scepter has on everyone around it (and how, when used to make an intelligence on the whole, it created an insane being with little control over its own emotions) I don't doubt that the Scepter could have been affecting him in general, exaggerating his fury like it did for the Avengers. It would explain why he's more overtly vicious than usual.

But everything he did in the film are still things Loki would normally do, decisions that are clearly his. In Thor he already shows callous disregard for the lives of his fellow Asgardians just for the sake of briefly pissing Thor off, and the willingness to eradicate an entire race to "deal with" his own inferiority complex. He may be dipping into his rage and violent nature more than usual in Avengers, but it's not really changing him - just making what's already inside more obvious.

I do like the gradual Motive Decay we see Loki go through. First he wants to prove to his father that he's worthier than his brother by wiping out all of Asgard's enemies (and maybe become king of Asgard in the process, he's flexible), then he doesn't give a damn about his father wants to rule a planet his brother likes to prove to himself that he's better than him, and then finally he seems to have gotten over his rivalry with Thor and just wants to rule Asgard.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61732: Aug 22nd 2016 at 10:53:53 PM

I think the theory that Loki was mind-controlled to a certain degree, too, is less based on his eye colour and more on the scene with the other, in which Loki is clearly shown to be under Thanos thumb. There is also this moment when he interacts with Thor during the battle...for a moment his eyes seem to flicker and he looks around, seemingly shocked by the chaos surrounding him and it looks like he might just give up, but then his eyes flicker again and he stabs Thor instead. It is naturally possible that he was just acting in order to catch Thor unaware...but that is the thing with Loki, it is very hard to figure out what is going on in his mind.

One thing for sure, though, should he ever actually succeed in killing Thor, it would break him.

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#61733: Aug 22nd 2016 at 11:00:12 PM

[up]I guess the issues with his dad distorted his moral compass after all...For all that mentioned.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#61735: Aug 22nd 2016 at 11:23:49 PM

[up]Oh the irony...

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#61736: Aug 22nd 2016 at 11:34:57 PM

They're really going all 80s with this film aren't they. Cool.

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#61737: Aug 22nd 2016 at 11:39:47 PM

[up]First the logo and now the composer? Looks like Marvel is about to create one of the most dissonant films of all time.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#61739: Aug 23rd 2016 at 6:37:50 AM

Remember that theory about Odin being a hobo?

It's true.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61740: Aug 23rd 2016 at 7:00:25 AM

Looks like AH has fun this time around.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#61741: Aug 23rd 2016 at 7:40:54 AM

Love those pictures. Interested in finding out what happened. I guess it could be as simple as beaming him to Earth and then him being treated as a crazy person because of his claims.

With Loki and Thor apparently in New York in the film and now Odin too, I really do hope they do that hot dog scene from that Spider-Man. In fact, although I like Loki a lot, I wouldn't even mind if it was between Thor and Odin- might be a nice bonding moment- whereas I'd imagine that Thor's first reaction to seeing Loki again would be trying to kill him- unless perhaps this is the end of the movie and the two of them have reconciled and are going to pick up Odin where Loki left him.

edited 23rd Aug '16 7:42:07 AM by Hodor2

wname8037 Since: Jan, 2016
#61742: Aug 23rd 2016 at 7:55:55 AM

Apparently, Loki will be in the side of Thor in this movie.

I imagine that Loki will be a A Lighter Shade of Black Nominal Hero.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#61743: Aug 23rd 2016 at 8:24:19 AM

I think the theory that Loki was mind-controlled to a certain degree, too, is less based on his eye colour and more on the scene with the other, in which Loki is clearly shown to be under Thanos thumb. There is also this moment when he interacts with Thor during the battle...for a moment his eyes seem to flicker and he looks around, seemingly shocked by the chaos surrounding him and it looks like he might just give up, but then his eyes flicker again and he stabs Thor instead. It is naturally possible that he was just acting in order to catch Thor unaware...but that is the thing with Loki, it is very hard to figure out what is going on in his mind.

Also in the fact that Loki's plan is just awful. He's the Fall Guy of the operation, and the only possible profit in him should things go his way is whatever profit his master Thanos deems him worthy of. Loki spends the entire movie acting like a broken slave with delusions of grandeur.

And you know his plan is supposed to be awful because, like, every character in the movie finds an opportunity to talk about how shitty his plan is. That's not just critical examination of Loki's goals; that his plan to rule the Earth is the delusional ravings of a broken puppet is explicit text.

Rumors of the scepter controlling or influencing Loki have been around since the film came out, but the reveal in Age of Ultron that the scepter contained the Mind Gem and the implication that the scepter itself is not merely a tool or a weapon but has an active AI functioning as Thanos's contingency plan gave that theory a level of credibility it had never had before.

That the scepter isn't just a mind-altering weapon but contains a thinking, intelligent mind purposefully utilizing its effects to advance Thanos's agenda with or without Loki suddenly brings into question exactly how much Loki was in his right mind after all.

edited 23rd Aug '16 8:25:40 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#61744: Aug 23rd 2016 at 8:32:57 AM

We also know it explicitly affects EVERYONE around it, even Asguardians, and people don't even need to touch it.

Yeah, I'd buy Loki as being wielded by the scepter.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#61745: Aug 23rd 2016 at 8:35:28 AM

Yeah, I kind of felt that AOU seemed to offer some confirmation of the theory in that Ultron fairly explicitly has a nonsensical plan because his mind is torn between Stark programming to "Save All Humans" and Thanos programming to "Kill All Humans" and so he "compromises" by trying to save all humans by killing them.

Before that though, yeah, there are a couple of moments where you could possibly interpret some degree of mind control turning off. For me, it's probably more of a Fanon Discontinuity thing in regard to Loki acting like Darkseid/ A Nazi by Any Other Name in the movie, something not reflected in his other appearances. Coupled with the fact that those personality traits do seem to fit Thanos.

The one caveat I have though is that Wanda and Pietro got their powers through the scepter and Strucker and other Hydra people were mucking about with it for months, and there's no suggestion of it messing with any of their minds.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61746: Aug 23rd 2016 at 8:35:59 AM

Another theory is that Loki pulled off a giant scheme in order to get away from Thanos by deliberately creating a plan which would fail, knowing that Thor would bring him back to Asgard...and no, he wouldn't tell Odin about it, he is too proud for that.

Anyway, I can imagine that Loki will have more the role of a somewhat ally in the upcoming movies. I don't think that he wants Thanos to get the gems and take over, though I wouldn't trust him to not steal them for himself either.

And who knows, we might even get clarification...it wouldn't be the first time a movie suddenly gets a different meaning by stuff we learned later on. Watching Iron Man 2 is not a totally different experience for example. And the thing with the nuke in The Avengers also has a couple of question mark now that we know for sure that one of the heads was a Hydra leader.

edited 23rd Aug '16 8:38:02 AM by Swanpride

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#61747: Aug 23rd 2016 at 8:38:18 AM

[up][up]Well it's not like HYDRA working on doomsday devices is a deviation from the norm.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#61748: Aug 23rd 2016 at 8:38:41 AM

I imagine it didn't do much to a crew that already had homicidal tendencies and delusions of grandeur.

@Swan, I feel like that theory is a tad convoluted.

edited 23rd Aug '16 8:39:20 AM by MousaThe14

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61749: Aug 23rd 2016 at 8:42:26 AM

[up] More convoluted than letting your Frost Giant Father into the palace just to kill him off shortly before he can kill your adaptive father so that you will be the heroic son for once? This is Loki we are talking about, he doesn't do simple.


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