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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#61326: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:13:19 PM

Should he talk like a stereotypical gangster, yay or nay?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#61327: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:14:35 PM

Of course Yay. He's from Brooklyn!

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#61328: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:27:51 PM

I just realized that an interesting way to do the Punisher Netflix show — have it include a bunch of flashbacks to his time in Afghanistan. That way, it could include a version of the Punisher: Born story, as well as showing how Frank was before he was the Punisher.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#61329: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:30:46 PM

Ehhh, the last thing the Punisher needs in his show is that story about how his family's dead because he sold them out to an ambiguously supernatural force in Vietnam in exchange for his killing prowess.

There was a lot of great stuff in the MAX series but Born wasn't one of those.

edited 10th Aug '16 2:31:12 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#61330: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:31:21 PM

It will probably have flashbacks because all of the Netflixes so far have used flashbacks in decent amounts.

[up] Hah hah what?

edited 10th Aug '16 2:31:55 PM by Bocaj

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#61331: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:34:21 PM

It's been a while since I've read it but in Born, there's this ambiguous supernatural voice that flows through the narrative and Frank makes some kind of agreement with it, which grants him the ability to wipe out all of the Viet Cong that destroyed his camp and killed all his men single-handedly, surviving enough bullets and other wounds to kill him six times over by sheer force of supernatural f*ckery.

And then in the end, it's implied that the supernatural force is going to kill his family in payment so he can continue being the ultimate soldier of destruction forever.

The Punisher is one of those concepts where it's a really simple idea, but one that really works. Despite this, writers keep trying to f*ck with it and their efforts to reinvent the wheel and "fix" Frank are always dumb.

edited 10th Aug '16 2:34:55 PM by TobiasDrake

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#61332: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:34:35 PM

Just flashing back to Afghanistan without any supernatural elements seems fine as a idea.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#61333: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:44:18 PM

Like the time where it turned out that a demon arranged the death of Frank's family so he'd kill a bunch of people and empower the demon to take over hell.

Or the time Frank got hired to KICK ASS FOR THE LORD.

Why do people keep trying to put supernatural elements into the Punisher?

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#61334: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:46:04 PM

Sounds good. You could include a contrast between the family man killing machine in the war and the killing machine in the present.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#61335: Aug 10th 2016 at 2:56:51 PM

A lot of that is because Garth Ennis thinks Frank Castle is a very bad person and not someone who should be admired or emulated, a position I don't exactly disagree with.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#61336: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:02:16 PM

I don't either, but you don't need to add "THE DEVIL MADE HIM DO IT" to communicate that Frank is not an admirable man. Hell, if anything, that makes him less awful because it means it's not really his fault; his choices were made because he was manipulated by Hell, not because of who he is.

Frank Castle

  1. Is a highly decorated war veteran.
  2. Loved his family with all his heart and soul.
  3. Fell back on #1 when #2 was taken from him by random, violent crime and proceeded to declare war on random, violent crime.

It's a pretty straightforward concept. But writers keep trying to add things like Satan killing his family or Frank letting it happen because he never really loved them anyway. And it's always stupid.

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Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#61337: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:10:33 PM

I don't know about the supernatural aspect, but I think there's some sense in presenting him in flashback as having some bloodthirsty elements to his character- but not to full Sociopathic Soldier levels necessary.

Because as terrible as what happened to Frank's family is, the "one bad day" take on him can go into the direction of presenting his vigilantism as a total normal or even admirable reaction to his circumstances (cf. the Death Wish films).

Conversely, by having these elements always exist in his personality, the presentation is more to the effect that he had a Morality Chain which he lost and that his vigilantism is an overreaction in line with his previous issues.

Although, I'm not sure that Castle's behavior (or really anyone in comics) is a fair/accurate presentation of a person with psychological issues.

One that that Castle does have on his side is that IIRC he knows the specific individuals complicit in killing his family, even if that doesn't justify his overall targeting of criminals.

edited 10th Aug '16 3:11:52 PM by Hodor2

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#61338: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:15:12 PM

Ennis still wrote my favorite version of Castle. And his writing was pretty spot-on most of the time:

"They hated that old man so much they shot him through my family. The world went crazy on a summer's day in Central Park, In the time before uzis and berettas, before nine millimeter popguns ruled the streets. It was a Thompson, like the ones our fathers carried, and I recognized its rattle even as its big, man-stopping forty-fives punched blood and breath from my lungs. I hit the ground besides my daughter. She's been gutshot, badly, and when she saw the things that boiled and wriggled from her belly the expression on her face was not a little girl's. My wife bled out later on the operating table, her heart a gaping hole her life drained through. Whenever i get careless, that yearning in her eyes creeps up and brings me to my knees. Right then the old man's soldiers started strated shooting back. My son dropped wordlessly, without a mark on him. I took a breath that cut like glass, spat blood, rose to my knees, picked up the boy and searched in vain for entry wounds. The bullet had entered through his open mouth. That was our picnic in the park. And now every night I go out and make the world sane."

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#61339: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:17:18 PM

Although, I'm not sure that Castle's behavior (or really anyone in comics) is a fair/accurate presentation of a person with psychological issues.

They aren't and never will be.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#61340: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:21:22 PM

Yeah, probably should have stated that more definitively. I more meant that while the "always messed up" Castle is better in terms of not presenting him as a hero, it has a potential downside in terms of unfair presentation of mental illness.

It also struck me that Zemo in the MCU is pretty close to Castle and the usual run of Vigilante Man protagonists- has the black ops background explaining his skills and wants to avenge the deaths of his family. It's just that he targets the Avengers rather than the typical Generic Ethnic Crime Gang.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61341: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:23:13 PM

A lot of that is because Garth Ennis thinks Frank Castle is a very bad person and not someone who should be admired or emulated, a position I don't exactly disagree with.

Unfortunately, there will always be people who view someone like Frank as a cool guy. Neither giving him connections to the devil or demons, nor making him someone who was always a budding sociopath just waiting to go off necessarily changes that. It's just that one of these things usually makes for a more believable story than the other.

[up]Funny how that works with Zemo, isn't it? I guess Frank wouldn't necessarily agree with T'Challa's conclusion about vengeance being generally destructive.

edited 10th Aug '16 3:24:59 PM by hollygoolightly

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#61342: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:25:43 PM

One that that Castle does have on his side is that IIRC he knows the specific individuals complicit in killing his family, even if that doesn't justify his overall targeting of criminals.

The advantage of having a specific character or set of characters responsible for the killing is that it provides a more human face for Castle's foe. A specific enemy he can embark on a vengeance plot against.

The disadvantage is that it doesn't really service the vigilante element well outside that revenge plot. Eventually, there's going to come a time where Castle has achieved his revenge. He's killed the people responsible for his family's deaths. He's made the world sane. What's his reason to keep pulling triggers?

Ultimately, putting a name and a face to his family's death is setting Castle up for Motive Decay. The idea that his family was killed in the crossfire, that no specific person is responsible and instead his family's lives were claimed by random, violent crime, establishes that Castle's vendetta isn't against any specific person or gang but against the very notion of random, violent crime and any who perpetrate it.

He can't put the gun down, can't move on, because his enemy is an abstract concept. Not any one man or mob. So long as violent crime exists, so too does the Punisher. Until the day it finally kills him, anyway.

edited 10th Aug '16 3:28:09 PM by TobiasDrake

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#61343: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:32:39 PM

Funny how that works with Zemo, isn't it? I guess Frank wouldn't necessarily agree with T'Challa's conclusion about vengeance being generally destructive.

Sure, he would. The best versions of the Punisher are the ones where he holds no illusions about what he's doing. He openly accepts that he is a serial killer, that his crimes are unjustified, that he's "become them". But he still does it, because it's what he has. It's who he is.

There's a surprisingly good scene in Punisher War Zone, what is otherwise the shittiest Punisher movie, in which Frank coldly converses with a police officer who, after becoming disillusioned by the system's ability to stop criminals, has teamed up with Frank and is about to storm the villain's base with him. Paraphrased,

  • Frank: I didn't know where this road was going to lead when I started on it. But it's too late for me to go back now. (blindsides the cop and knocks him out) You're not starting on it.

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#61344: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:40:37 PM

Would they have to get Jigsaw as the villain? He's the only Punisher villain I know of that recurs quite a bit.

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hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61345: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:43:27 PM

[up][up]I'm not convinced of his logic, but I also haven't been in danger of thinking of him as an admirable person so far. (Including the Netflix version, whom I do like, as a character.)

edited 10th Aug '16 3:44:22 PM by hollygoolightly

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#61346: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:53:47 PM

Im divided on whether Terry Crews or Forrest Whitaker should be Barracuda.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#61347: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:56:06 PM

Maybe Terry Crews, if he ain't busy.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#61348: Aug 10th 2016 at 4:01:04 PM

Reading about the character on The Other Wiki, I can't decide if he's Crazy Awesome, horribly racist, or a typically over-the-top Ennis villain. Maybe all three.

Crews is a wonderfully entertaining actor though and I'd love to see him in the MCU. I mentioned D-Man in another thread, and while he doesn't look like the character, he has the perfect personality.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#61349: Aug 10th 2016 at 4:03:09 PM

Jigsaw, I think, is the only recurring Punisher villain. Mainly when the Punisher defeats his villains, he just kills them.

Although there was a Punisher series where his archenemies were the Kingpin and Bullseye. I guess they just imported Daredevil's villains because Frank's weren't interesting enough.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#61350: Aug 10th 2016 at 4:05:13 PM

Speaking of Daredevil villains, I could see Bullseye interacting with the Punisher in an Evil Versus Evil kind of thing.

Like you'd have the police trying to figure out all these mysterious murders- some of mobsters others of mob opponents- and Frank and Bullseye would be hunting each other.

edited 10th Aug '16 4:07:07 PM by Hodor2


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