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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61251: Aug 9th 2016 at 3:43:46 AM

Because he is interested in his web-shooters. Tony thinks that Peter can just sit at the sidelines, web everyone up and nobody gets hurt. Didn't really work out.

Also, Tony knows that Peter won't stop anyway. And to be fair, Peter is hardly a normal teen, with all the powers he has, most adults are more helpless than he is.

And Natasha leaked the Shield files. I doubt that there was much about Hydra in them because if you infiltrate another organisation you hardly put the information about it on their servers. There is a reason why Natasha had to go to old contacts just to provide Steve with a very small file on the Winter Soldier.

edited 9th Aug '16 3:45:15 AM by Swanpride

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61252: Aug 9th 2016 at 4:08:15 AM

[up][up]1. Tony didn't expect the fight on the airport to get that dangerous, since they were all friends - as opposed to Sokovia, where they were fighting an enemy who wanted to kill them. I also suspect he thought he could keep an eye on Peter (remember he did send him home when it turned out the whole situation wouldn't get resolved easily).

2. A bit of a handwave, but a lot of that stuff was encrypted, so I guess he didn't get to that part yet (Zemo, on the other hand, was specifically searching for ways to hurt the Avengers, so he would have likely concentrated on both the Winter Soldier missions and anything possibly related to the Avengers and their families). He probably also didn't suspect that his parents were murdered, he genuinely thought they died in a car crash. That's part of why he was so angry at Steve not telling him I believe.

edited 9th Aug '16 4:09:15 AM by hollygoolightly

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61253: Aug 9th 2016 at 4:19:35 AM

While Zemo studied the shield fields to find a way to break up the Avengers, I doubt that it was as straightforward as "Hydra did this and that". Most likely he found a hint concerning a cover-up regarding the death of Howard (seriously, Shield had to know that this was NOT an accident, most likely they were the one who took care of the cover-up in the first place), and then he looked into the Winter Soldier (perhaps even from another source considering that Zemo is covert ops himself) and figured out that he was on some kind of mission the same day Tony's parents died by the hand of an assassin who was never caught. And from there he goes in order to find proof for what he suspects already. I doubt he even knew about the other Winter soldiers before Bucky gave him his mission report.

Also, Tony has really other worries than filtering through all the Shield files. Jarvis might or might not have worked on it in his subroutines before Ultron attacked him, but we are talking here about data collected by thousands of people over the span of over 70 years.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61254: Aug 9th 2016 at 4:26:14 AM

[up]You're right about Zemo - I remembered that he was covert ops, too, and given Sokovia's apparent geographical position, they may have been part of the Soviet Union, which means he could have access to files that wouldn't have been in the SHIELD database (like the file on the WS Natasha gave Steve, as you pointed out). And again, he was really focussed on finding weak points.

And yeah, I agree on Tony having other stuff to do. I have to admit this wasn't a point I really questioned - if you think someone died of an accident and there is no suspicion it was something else, why would you specifically look into it, especially in a source that has no apparent connection?

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#61255: Aug 9th 2016 at 5:11:25 AM

Peter Parker had exceptional and unique non-lethal weapons technology that would be perfect for someone that wants to apprehend people without causing significant damage. Tony Stark could have just taken the web shooters but he doesn't know how to use them and was given a very short time frame to stop his friends. The logical choice would be to have the expert in the technology use the technology so he doesn't screw it up. The only flaw in all this was that said inventor of the amazing technology and said expert happened to be 15. In any other scenario everything he did would have been 100% logical. However he did make the mistake of getting Parker involved in the first place an that's definitely on him but there is a chain of reason there.

The Blog The Art
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61256: Aug 9th 2016 at 5:27:25 AM

Well, Tony is kind of irresponsible, and it is not like he takes Peter to face Thanos or even Ultron. So I can buy him doing that not realizing how fast the situation might escalate...and once it does, he naturally feels guilty about it.

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61258: Aug 9th 2016 at 6:55:55 AM

[up]Nice.

fingers crossed Claire is going to show up more in this one than in Daredevil or Jessica Jones.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#61259: Aug 9th 2016 at 8:00:14 AM

I CAN'T WAIT

The Blog The Art
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61260: Aug 9th 2016 at 8:53:22 AM

Ha! I knew it! I knew they would drop something this week now that the first buzz around SS has died down a little bit and they can be sure to get the full attention of the audience...

I already see that this will be a hard show to watch for me with all the slang in it (not a critique, just an observation). But yeah for more Claire! If they show her off in the trailer she should have at the very least a more substantial role than she got in Jessica Jones!

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#61261: Aug 9th 2016 at 8:55:11 AM

HOLY SHIT, LUKE CAGE IS GONNA BE AWESOME! I seriously cannot wait. smile

edited 9th Aug '16 8:55:32 AM by DeathsApprentice

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#61262: Aug 9th 2016 at 8:57:51 AM

Tony also wanted Peter to stay back and fight from a distance. But the fight got more out of control than he expected (hence why he then sent Peter back home after it was over).

Really Zemo's plan is my biggest issue with the movie (specifically near the end). I was cool with it up until them, but the I repeatedly kept thinking "Ok Russo's, you're good. And it's been good-enough that I can overlook a few things here and there. But now, I'm being asked to handwave A LOT of stuff in order for this to work." Maybe they just had an off-day when they wrote that or something, IDK?

It's one of my only real issues with the Russo's writing. There are moments when they just flat-out don't bother to explain/address certain things, and their excuse tends be "well it happens in the comics" or "our plot wouldn't work otherwise." And, that's not good-enough imo. It doesn't happen a lot, but it tends to happen in situations where it's very noticeable to me.

edited 9th Aug '16 9:01:08 AM by Punisher286

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61263: Aug 9th 2016 at 9:17:06 AM

They didn't. I explained that before, but I'll do it one last time: The key to Zemo is the very first scene with him, when he interviews the Hydra operative, and the guy refuses to talk (I guess some of those Hydra guys actually have some sort of integrity after all). Zemo is standing there basically saying: If you talk, this will be easier for me and I have to kill less people. But if you don't, well, it doesn't matter, I'll get what I want, it will just be more difficult." And then he lets the guy drown, because he was serious, he has to time to waste with stubborn sources.

Let's assume the guy HAD talked. There would have been no need for Zemo to stage an attack in order to get to Bucky, at least not for the information. He might have done it anyway, but after he actually got the recording, and not in order to talk to Bucky, but to put Steve and Tony at odds with each other (or at the very least the government) over his fate. And then he would have gone and used the tape whenever he wants. We will never know because the guy didn't talk. And we will also never know what Zemo's last order to Bucky was. What would have happened if Steve hadn't stopped the helicopter? So whatever Zemo had planed there, it didn't work out because Steve interfered just in time.

So while Zemo is travelling to Russia (most likely not even knowing what he would find there exactly, just hoping that it would be something useful) the whole tarmac fight happens. Zemo now has a choice. He can either leave Tony in the belief that Bucky is guilty, or he can phone into the hotel himself, ensuring that the body gets discovered, hence ensuring that Tony would fly to Cap's aid. It might seem strange that he is doing this, but think about it: Wouldn't the feel of betrayal in Tony not way bigger when he just jumped over his own shadow to help Cap out, basically admitting that he was in the wrong, just to discover that Cap withheld something that vital from him?

It might seem like a stretch that Zemo can predict the actions of the Avengers that well towards the end, but for one, he has studied them for a full year and is portrayed as a masterful manipulator and two, this is not a win or lose situation. If nobody turns up at the Bunker he can leave and use the tape another day. If only Cap and Bucky turn up, he can shut them in, leave and use the tape another day. If all of them turn up he can use the tape and should Tony not react the way he wants him to, he can should all of them in and then search for something else to tear the Avengers apart.

Granted, that everything falls in place perfectly in the end is a little bit convenient, but it is not as unbelievable than some people make it out to be and certainly not more convenient than other stuff which has to happen for a big finale to happen in any given movie.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#61264: Aug 9th 2016 at 9:21:03 AM

The opening scene just makes me think his plan was basically,

  • Find the recording.
  • ???
  • Revenge.

He was adapting as he needed to get himself to the bunker. Evolving the plan, analyzing and re-analyzing the resources he had on him, making decisions and adjustments where needed. Then, while he was at the bunker, Cap and Tony showed up and Zemo went, "OMG, this went so much better than I expected! Let's just do this now."

Basically, there were more steps after he reached the bunker, but when opportunity knocked, he didn't need those steps anymore. Having a plan doesn't mean you have perfectly predicted the exact movements of everyone and everything. No plan survives impact with reality; a good plan is one that can pull itself together and keep moving despite it.

edited 9th Aug '16 9:22:57 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61265: Aug 9th 2016 at 9:59:41 AM

I keep thinking Zemo must have been a scarily competent black ops guy. "Our target's schedule has changed completely and we don't know where he is right now? No problem, let me just macgyver this new plan together and we're home by dinner tomorrow."

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61266: Aug 9th 2016 at 10:05:14 AM

[up] Well, there are people who build a suit out of a BUNCH OF SCRAPS! In a CAVE!

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#61267: Aug 9th 2016 at 10:08:56 AM

[up] Well it wasn't really scraps it was pieces of a high end missile.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#61268: Aug 9th 2016 at 10:13:20 AM

"our plot wouldn't work otherwise" is the "excuse" of every director for every movie they make. It happens in every film, the real question tends to be whether or not it was big enough to ruin the experience for you or take you out of it or whatever.

Also I'm with Tobias on this one. If there's one thing I tend to have a problem with in terms of how some people interpret movies add character is that they seem to think a character, typically a villain, had ONE PLAN that was perfect all the way through and that said character has perfectly calculated and prepared for everything so that the ONE PLAN was perfect in every way.

When the logical way of seeing it is that they had general outlines of a plan or only certain parts of it were perfectly detailed and everything else was adjusting, re-calculating, or had contingencies.

Comes up a lot when talking about The Joker in The Dark Knight for example, like that one scene where a henchmen with a bomb in him was in the police station Joker was in. Many interpret it as Joker somehow impossibly knowing certain cops would catch one particular guy and take him to that particular station when more likely he had several henchmen throughout the city he had bombs in them, each of them with a specific cell phone number attached and he got lucky one of them happened to end up in his station but if not a random explosion or two somewhere in the city would make for a great distraction nonetheless.

The Blog The Art
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61269: Aug 9th 2016 at 10:21:43 AM

Yeah, I mean this is a problem if a villain does something really stupid which puts him into hot water for no reason at all (for example, Stane is a very sneaky villain for two acts of Iron man, but in the third act he suddenly acts like an idiot by not only having proof of his crime on his work computer, but then going crazy when he still had plausible deniability...I can certainly see a villain acting that way out of spite, but only if said character trait is set up beforehand, and in this case it isn't). But Zemo is portrayed very consistent as smart, resourceful and able to adjust to a degree that he even plans contingency plans ahead.

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#61270: Aug 9th 2016 at 10:25:46 AM

All the time you see protagonists' plans screw up and they have to improvise, but you only know it screwed up because you're seeing it from their perspective. From the mob boss or heist target's point of view, the protagonist knew everything that was going to happen and had a perfectly executed plan.

Same thing with Zemo, but since the protagonists are the targets we don't see his perspective.

edited 9th Aug '16 10:27:22 AM by stingerbrg

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#61271: Aug 9th 2016 at 12:36:31 PM

I'm talking about the bunker scene, not his entire plan. It has nothing to do with him "making it up/improvising as he went along." You just completely misread what I was saying basically.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61272: Aug 9th 2016 at 12:39:19 PM

And what exactly is the issue with the bunker scene? It is more or less the first time his plan actually works out without bigger trouble (well, other than Black Panther turning up).

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#61273: Aug 9th 2016 at 1:40:06 PM

Comes up a lot when talking about The Joker in The Dark Knight for example, like that one scene where a henchmen with a bomb in him was in the police station Joker was in.

There were henchmen in the Joker's truck. Bomb guy was among them, hence why they were all taken to the same location as the Joker.

edited 9th Aug '16 1:41:23 PM by Tuckerscreator

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#61274: Aug 9th 2016 at 1:53:21 PM

Just wanna say I love how they incorporated the handcuffs and tiara by making it part of the experimental gear Luke had on when he got his powers.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61275: Aug 9th 2016 at 2:27:31 PM

Me too.

It's those little things you know. The way they figure out how to pay homage to the history of the characters while still not making them dress stupidly.

One Strip! One Strip!

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