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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

hollygoolightly Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#61201: Aug 7th 2016 at 2:45:28 PM

[up][up]Currently, he's most prominently known for the lead in Mr. Robot, I believe. From that I can say that he is a pretty intense actor, and can definitely deal with weird stuff.

[up] Short Term 12 - that's where I know him from! Thank you. I watched Mr. Robot and kept thinking that he seemed so familiar.

edited 7th Aug '16 2:47:13 PM by hollygoolightly

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#61202: Aug 7th 2016 at 2:56:34 PM

Oh, he's the guy from Mr. Robot? I'd been meaning to check that show out.

Won't him being on that show conflict with a possible Moon Knight role, though?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61203: Aug 7th 2016 at 2:56:59 PM

As I once pointed out, religious diversity is a somewhat odd request, because technically, every character on screen might follow any religion unless it is specified. We just tend to assume that a character is Christian, but in the MCU, there are only two so far which actually are, Daredevil and Steve (and in Steve's case his declaration that there is only one god doesn't that necessarily means that he is Christian either, it is just the most likely religion with him being a white guy born in 1918 in Brooklyn). Just like Eskine isn't necessarily Jewish either (just because he fled Germany it doesn't mean that he necessarily is, though he might). Anyway, the only religion Tony believes in is science and it might be the same for Bruce, Thor is a Norse god so if he is following any kind of religion we would see him as a Pagan, I guess, Natasha was raised to follow a regime, and Clint doesn't look like he cares about praying, either.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#61204: Aug 7th 2016 at 2:58:56 PM

No, there's nothing odd about the desire for more religious inclusiveness, especially when it comes to such historically oppressed religions as Judaism. Ambiguity is hardly representation.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#61205: Aug 7th 2016 at 3:00:48 PM

Isn't the comic version of Tony Stark an atheist?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#61206: Aug 7th 2016 at 3:01:34 PM

Until Dawn and that hacking show are where I know him from.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#61207: Aug 7th 2016 at 3:03:41 PM

@hollygoodlightly: No problem! Funny thing is, I only recognized him retroactively from Short Term 12 like a few weeks ago.

In a world where he does get cast as Moon Knight, I want him to meet Carol, purely for the sake of the Actor Allusion.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#61208: Aug 7th 2016 at 3:07:32 PM

However, if the character is indeed Jewish, then I could see casting a non-Jewish actor as not being such a hot idea.
How so?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#61209: Aug 7th 2016 at 3:09:05 PM

Malek was fantastic in Until Dawn as Josh Washington. He can definitely handle the more intense aspects of Moon Knight no problem. If cast there's no denying he can pull it off the material. The real questions are more over whether he's got interest in the role, time in his schedule, or whether Marvel wants him in the first place.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#61210: Aug 7th 2016 at 3:18:33 PM

[up] Now, has Marvel even expressed any interest in doing a Moon Knight adaptation, or is this all just speculation/fancasting on our part? (And yeah, he did do a great job in Until Dawn.)

[up][up] Because the Jewish community has enough problems with visibility in media as it is (and that's not even getting into the other problems they have - hate crimes, harassment, property defacement, etc). It's a matter of respect - allowing them to portray their own characters. I've heard many a Jewish geek and activist espouse this viewpoint, so I'm certainly not going to challenge it.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#61211: Aug 7th 2016 at 3:27:41 PM

As You Have to Have Jews explains in better detail, there is a significant number of Jewish people in the entertainment industry, including as actors, to the point that they don't have a problem with lack of representation from a staffing standpoint. However, they still usually play Gentile characters or ones who are only Ambiguously Jewish at most. It's kind of of the opposite of the problem most other ethnic minorities have when it comes to representation.

The opinions of actual Jewish people on the matter of their representation in the media is very diverse, and complicated by the fact that while there's not a lot of onscreen representation for Judaism, there is a lot of it behind the scenes. I'm really not interested in debating the politics of whether Jewish people do count as people of color or not, it's very thorny, based on artificial social constructs to begin with, and often No True Scotsman'd to hell and back and somehow the geopolitics of Israel always gets dragged in for no good reason. But with the clamoring for more representation of ethnicities more obviously "of color" to people in the US in behind-the-scenes positions such as writers, producers, and directors, a significant portion of the people and executives who fall under the "straight white boy" Tumblr epithet that would be displaced as a result do happen to be Ashkenazi Jewish, and with enough sophistry involved one could argue that it takes away representation from Jewish people, and is therefore anti-Semitic.

I wouldn't look to any one particular viewpoint as the "right" one, because it's very easy to turn into oppression olympics, or to silence the diversity of opinions within a particular ethnic group for not falling into line with those of whomever you surround yourself with. See this post for what I'm talking about, it goes both ways.

edited 7th Aug '16 3:50:53 PM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61212: Aug 7th 2016 at 3:32:12 PM

I always balk at the notion that Jews somehow look particularly Jewish, but that is mostly because Hitler used this idea in his hate campaign, so there is that.

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#61213: Aug 7th 2016 at 4:05:22 PM

Another part of Moon Knight's character is that he hasn't been an observant Jew in years, which makes sense, seeing as he's the avatar of the Egyptian moon god.

Make mine Marvel.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#61214: Aug 7th 2016 at 4:14:07 PM

As I understand it, he wasn't observant before then either— from what I've read (through summaries and blurbs following his appearances in other books), he was a violent mercenary and CIA operative who'd walked away from his father's faith years before.

He's also got multiple alter egos and some form of personality disorder where he doesn't always know who he is. The extent to which he's even a good and loyal servant of Khonshu seems to vary considerably from story to story and writer to writer.

As usual, I'm sure somebody else knows the subject better than me, but it seems relevant.

edited 7th Aug '16 4:15:21 PM by Unsung

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#61215: Aug 7th 2016 at 4:19:17 PM

I'll always find Moon Knight hilarious because I read the Werewolf by Night issue where he first appeared and he was just a mercenary hired to punch a werewolf to death and he decided halfway through punching a werewolf to death that he would actually pass on this job thank you but walked off with his pay and the gear they outfitted him with anyway.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#61216: Aug 7th 2016 at 4:19:34 PM

Does the MCU have any characters explicitly state a religion beyond Dare Devil? Steve is probably a Christian of indeterminate denomination but that's it, we never see Thor, Tony, Bruce, Hawkeye or Natasha reveal any faith. Hell Natasha was raised in an atheist state, and didn't Blank Panther reveal his faith in Civil War?

So we've got what? One explicit Catholic? Steve believes in a god but he could be of any single God faith, probably either Christian or Jewish.

Wanda may be Jewish ethnically, obviously she would be if she was still Magentto's daughter but that's apparently not cannon anymore.

edited 7th Aug '16 4:41:24 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#61217: Aug 7th 2016 at 4:35:16 PM

I gotta wonder how Asgardian religion works in this universe. They inspired religions on Earth but do they have any religious beliefs of their own? We know they definitely have special funerary rites at least.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#61218: Aug 7th 2016 at 4:41:30 PM

I know in the comics, the gods had gods they believed in but they turned out to be dicks so Thor broke Ragnarok

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#61219: Aug 7th 2016 at 4:51:40 PM

Black Panther has a line laying out his people's belief in the afterlife so I presume he believes it as well.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61220: Aug 7th 2016 at 4:59:51 PM

For all we know Wanda is Wicca.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#61221: Aug 7th 2016 at 6:07:48 PM

If you guys want to see a show with Jewish representation, you should watch Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. Rachel Bloom, who portrays the main character, is Jewish and since she's the co-creator and writer for the show, she also made the main character Jewish as well. And there's quite a bit of Jewish humor:

As I Jew, I wouldn't mind Marc Spector being played by someone who isn't Jewish, just like I don't mind that the X-Men movies don't have anyone Jewish play Magneto. They still keep that aspect to him, though, which I think is the important part.

edited 7th Aug '16 6:08:56 PM by alliterator

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#61222: Aug 7th 2016 at 6:09:02 PM

Oh yeah, I've been binge-watching the first season of that. It initially came onto my radar because of the (highly laudable) portrayal of Josh Chan, but there's a lot more to love in the series than just that.

Also, that's fair. I didn't intend to speak over actual Jewish people on the subject, I was really just voicing the knee-jerk reaction I've acquired from reading various opinions on the matter. I'll stay in my lane on this one.

edited 7th Aug '16 6:10:15 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#61224: Aug 7th 2016 at 6:28:30 PM

Well, that just means she won't be appearing in Iron Fist, right? It doesn't mean they're tossing out the idea of her getting her own series. Which, again, I'll believe it when I see it, but it seems like the possibility is still out there.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#61225: Aug 7th 2016 at 10:12:05 PM

They don't even know if the audience will like their version of Misty Knight yet.

Why are we always thinking about step four when Marvel hasn't even taken step two yet?


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