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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#60476: Jul 16th 2016 at 5:54:35 PM

Season 1 Fisk was a guy who wanted all the power of a mob boss without actually being a mob boss. Him getting rid of Nobu and the Russians makes sense for his character, as for most of that season he had somehow deluded himself into thinking that despite being elbow deep in organized crime he was actually better than the actions of his allies and underlings and was actually going to somehow get rid of it all once he had milked the cow enough.

He gets an epiphany about how the whole delusion is self defeating, but only after getting arrested.

The only thing that bugs me about Netflix Fisk is how hard its going to be to build him going forward into a threat that could conceivably be a threat (or at least be considered noteworthy in any way) to the hero community of the MCU in general. He needs to start dealing in superpowered weapons, they need to introduce the modern-day Maggia (after setting them up in Agent Carter), etc.

So far he's just a crime boss whose organization threatened one neighborhood. A huge deal to those who reside in that very specific area, but barely a blip even to someone operating in the same city like Spider-Man, especially since he undergoes a titanic defeat and loses nearly everything at the end of his first storyline. If we didn't already know better, it wouldn't be hard to think of him as a Starter Villain for Matt.

edited 16th Jul '16 6:00:18 PM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#60477: Jul 16th 2016 at 6:00:32 PM

Fisk's ability to be taken as a legitimately serious threat to the superhero community is inevitably going to be undermined by both the choice of medium and, specifically, which heroes came before the Netflix shows. There is probably never going to be a time where we're expected to believe the likes of Iron Man or Thor could be threatened by him.

But we don't have to, because a crime boss in New York is below their pay grade. He's a street-level problem for street-level characters like Dare Devil.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60478: Jul 16th 2016 at 9:03:56 PM

And Spider Man.

Fisk was his enemy first. It's just that it's always been far more personal with Matt.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60479: Jul 16th 2016 at 9:14:32 PM

I miss the Silver Age, when Fisk was stronger than Spider-Man, physically.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#60480: Jul 16th 2016 at 9:37:10 PM

[up][up] Fisk has always been to supervillainy what Spider-Man is to superheroics: a bridge between street level and higher-threat supervillainy, which is why he works so well as an enemy of Spider-Man himself.

[up][up][up][up] I don't think you meant that to sound as derisive to street level characters as it did, but the perception that them and their problems are irrelevant to other characters is a major problem street level heroes tend to have when it comes to audience perception, and it's a trap I've always liked that Marvel often doesn't quite fall into.

Jessica Jones is a good example of how a good street level story works. It's isolated, not unimportant. Smaller scale, not insignificant. The story is personal and centered specifically around the main characters, with steps taken to ensure it doesn't affect the larger universe, but not because its beneath notice - or rather, the way it falls beneath notice, itself, works well within the larger universe.

The issue I've had so far with Fisk is that, even in the context of Daredevil itself, he doesn't seem as deserving of that insular, personal story as Kilgrave was. He's pinned up as a ubiquitous crime lord but isn't really as ubiquitous and powerful as he appears - all he cares about is Hells Kitchen, his organization is two bad calls away from falling apart and when it comes to capabilities and resources he's ultimately he's not much different than any other crime boss villain even from non-superhero sources.

The show gives the impression that he's about to become something bigger and more dangerous than ever before, but so far Fisk has worked better as a villain with personality than a villain with clout.

edited 16th Jul '16 9:55:30 PM by KnownUnknown

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#60481: Jul 16th 2016 at 10:05:28 PM

Well, Season 2 does imply that he figured out Daredevil's secret identity, so that could at least lead to some very personal conflict if not large-reaching.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60482: Jul 16th 2016 at 10:52:19 PM

"The story is personal and centered specifically around the main characters, with steps taken to ensure it doesn't affect the larger universe, but not because its beneath notice - or rather, the way it falls beneath notice, itself, works well within the larger universe"

And right now that dosent work with Agent of Shield, as their inhuman plot and Hive is all ignored movie part in favour of "Tony is going insane, Cap kiss Peggo 0,2 and Wanda kill african men...again"

It was VERY weird when this two situations happen in the same universe

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#60483: Jul 16th 2016 at 11:05:03 PM

AOS has always desperately wanted to do its own thing, and has the problem of trying to huge and gamechanging with their plots in ways that won't ever work because the movies not only can't acknowledge stuff like that, but those developments don't mesh well with where the rest of the universe is and probably won't be acknowledged simply because of that.

I stopped thinking Agents of SHIELD's plots would line up well around the second time they "wiped out every last bit of HYDRA we swear."

It would, ironically, be easier to reference the events of stories like Daredevil in the films (if the MCU were so inclined, which so far they're not) because their stories are so insular and easy to add. It's the same reason why, for example, Klaue was so easy to throw into Ultron with Wakanda mentions despite the heroes he's supposed to be the enemy of not even being introduced yet: "smuggler in powerful stuff with international enemies" is a plot niche that is specific and simple enough to not demand large amounts of attention.

edited 16th Jul '16 11:06:47 PM by KnownUnknown

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#60484: Jul 16th 2016 at 11:09:57 PM

It could be something as simple as Steve reading a copy of the Bugle with "WHO IS THE DEVIL OF HELL'S KITCHEN BY KAREN SO AND SO" on the front page.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60485: Jul 16th 2016 at 11:21:22 PM

Fans really just want acknowledgement, not actual plot crossovers or tie-ins.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#60486: Jul 16th 2016 at 11:21:52 PM

"Nope, Coulson's dead to me."

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#60487: Jul 17th 2016 at 2:07:41 AM

Ao S is a very underrated TV show imho.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60488: Jul 17th 2016 at 4:15:01 AM

[up][up] "Steve come on, I said I was sorry."

"Begone illusion! Torment me not!"

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#60489: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:31:13 AM

Being isolated and personal is not the difference between street-level and higher-threat conflicts. There are isolated, personal higher-threat conflicts. There are also street-level conflicts that aren't so personal.

It's about scope. The fact of the matter is, Wilson Fisk wanting to control a neighborhood isn't anywhere near the same level of scope as Loki using that same neighborhood as a staging ground for an alien invasion.

Different scopes call for different heroes, because - and I cannot stress this enough - these people are very busy. If given a choice between "A crime boss is rising in New York" and "A Kree death-bomb is going to blow up the sun," Thor is going to deal with the latter. That's the level of scope he operates on. Thor doesn't patrol the city for muggers because he's too busy fending off apocalypse-level events and shutting down a natural disaster here or there.

Dare Devil has no way of stopping a Kree death-bomb from hitting the sun. He wouldn't even know that's a thing. For a character like him, the crime boss IS the big threat.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Problems only arise when people defensively act as though saying something is "street-level" is an insult.

edited 17th Jul '16 6:34:10 AM by TobiasDrake

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comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#60490: Jul 17th 2016 at 8:32:36 AM

And right now that dosent work with Agent of Shield, as their inhuman plot and Hive is all ignored movie part in favour of "Tony is going insane, Cap kiss Peggo 0,2 and Wanda kill african men...again"

You keep bringing that example up. It doesn't work. Civil War was never gonna be about the Inhumans because the Inhumans have nothing to do with them. They didn't "ignore" AOS; they never had any investment in that story to begin with.

Why would a movie called "Captain America: Civil War" be about AOS?

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#60491: Jul 17th 2016 at 9:11:50 AM

I do think that the movie references in AOS have gotten more streamlined.

They were able to work in the Civil War thing into the ongoing plot very smoothly.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#60492: Jul 17th 2016 at 9:40:41 AM

Being isolated and personal is not the difference between street-level and higher-threat conflicts. There are isolated, personal higher-threat conflicts. There are also street-level conflicts that aren't so personal.

It's about scope. The fact of the matter is, Wilson Fisk wanting to control a neighborhood isn't anywhere near the same level of scope as Loki using that same neighborhood as a staging ground for an alien invasion.

You misread me. I didn't say that a street level story is defined by being personal (it's actually defined by a large array of urban and/or noir or realistic tropes that define the plot and characters in a predominantly "closer to ground" context), I said that being well developed as personal and isolated is what makes a good street level story work. I was contrasting Fisk and Kilgrave.

Also, pretty much nobody in the MCU but Thanos and Ronan is of the same scope as Loki trying to take over the Earth - he's a cosmic level threat, because he comes from a cosmic level context. Street level threats are, by definition, on a terrestrial (or more precisely, a city-wise, though possibly national or international) context - they should be relevant to Earth, not the galaxy as a whole.

This means that while Fisk wouldn't be relevant to Thor, he could be relevant to the Iron Man or Captain America - who have faced threats with scopes that Fisk can achieve: arms dealers, corrupt corporate executives, smugglers, pirates... the difference is in what Fisk chooses to lord over (a single neighborhood), but if he becomes more like his comics counterpart in the future that can and will change.

On another note, they're in a superhero universe - because of this, they need to be developed such that they fit within that universe. Daredevil has always been in a bind similar to Arrow, in that the writers aren't sure whether they want him to be more urban or more grand superhero, and aren't good at mixing the two (maybe they should call Paul Dini). However, the idea that the characters should simply not be relevant to the superhero context as a whole because of their scope is a poor way of looking at the characters and an easy avenue to dismissing them.

Dare Devil has no way of stopping a Kree death-bomb from hitting the sun. He wouldn't even know that's a thing. For a character like him, the crime boss IS the big threat.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Problems only arise when people defensively act as though saying something is "street-level" is an insult.

I'm not sure why he should have to. Which is to say that I'm not sure what that example is supposed to say. Of course he can't do that. So? That doesn't mean he's not a character that has potential in the universe as a whole.

The issue here is that you're making the case that, because Fisk can't take over the world with an army of alien soldiers, he is not relevant to the characters who deal with such things - which is ridiculous. And maybe also coming at it from the idea that if a character is affected by a villain, that villain must be comparable to the most powerful or plot important character they've faced. It's a very "outside looking in" mentality, the kind of thing that keeps a universe isolated as it approaches characters with the idea that they can't compliment one another rather than the idea that they're in a world where everyone has a place.

Even taking into account that facing such threats is the wont of crossovers that put nearly all of those characters into an area they don't usually combat, the reason for potential relevancy isn't scope, it's context and genre - Thor wouldn't face Fisk, because he's the bridge between cosmic and terrestrial threats, with fantasy leanings at that. On the other hand, it's possible for the Guardians - who are cosmic level - to fight a Fisk (that is, a Fisk-type character on an galactic scale, like Jabba the Hutt) because their genre accommodates it.

You're jumping from one extreme to another. It's not a light switch: you're not either a world threatening threat or beneath notice. Characters don't work like that in a universe, especially in a universe as varied as this one has the potential to be.

Marvel Comics doesn't work like that - it's a universe where crime bosses with connections match sell to nebulous evil organizations and match wits with hero organizations all the time, where organized crime deals in supersuits and death lasers rather than machine guns and drugs - why should the Marvel Cinematic Universe work like that?

My basic problem with the way people use "street level" is when they try to use it as a way to separate rather than define the characters (it's not relevant to this conversation, but people using "street level" as a power-level designation rather than a genre designation is also a hot button for me), because I feel that it is frankly looking at the term - and the characters - incorrectly.

edited 17th Jul '16 10:12:08 AM by KnownUnknown

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#60493: Jul 17th 2016 at 10:54:44 AM

The Avengers aren't realistically going to ever cross paths with MCU Fisk because he's not the kind of villain they are trained or inclined to go up against, the same way they would probably never have encountered or gone after Killgrave because he is another who just flies underneath their radar.

Comics Fisk was basically the head honcho of a global crime empire. MCU Fisk doesn't even run all of New York. He just doesn't register as the kind of threat the Avengers respond to.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#60494: Jul 17th 2016 at 10:57:46 AM

Or as I put it:

The only thing that bugs me about Netflix Fisk is how hard its going to be to build him going forward into a threat that could conceivably be a threat (or at least be considered noteworthy in any way) to the hero community of the MCU in general. He needs to start dealing in superpowered weapons, they need to introduce the modern-day Maggia (after setting them up in Agent Carter), etc.

So far he's just a crime boss whose organization threatened one neighborhood. A huge deal to those who reside in that very specific area, but barely a blip even to someone operating in the same city like Spider-Man, especially since he undergoes a titanic defeat and loses nearly everything at the end of his first storyline. If we didn't already know better, it wouldn't be hard to think of him as a Starter Villain for Matt.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#60495: Jul 17th 2016 at 11:04:35 AM

Yes... and also no. He would be a starter villain to the main Avengers for sure, but Matt's whole life revolves around that same segment of the city Fisk is running. In the grand scheme of things, the pair of them are pretty inconsequential. But on a personal level, this is every bit as big as anything the main team are drawn into.

He doesn't NEED to be made this super-villain global crime lord because the Avengers don't NEED to ever come across him. He's Matt's arch-enemy and that's just fine.

edited 17th Jul '16 11:06:45 AM by jakobitis

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60496: Jul 17th 2016 at 11:06:31 AM

That assumes Fisk would need to ever enter the silver screen, the only place any of the Avengers have been on.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#60497: Jul 17th 2016 at 11:07:17 AM

[up][up] The Avengers already have a starter villain in the form of Loki. Starter Villain isn't a power-level trope, it's a plot trope.

Also, I've pointed out a couple times that having a role in the universe and being the big major villain of a movie aren't the same thing. He doesn't have to fight the Avengers or even be an Avengers villain to be a part of the The 'Verse, but he should work within The Verse as a whole. My point is that so far Fisk is so insignificant that he doesn't rank even among other villains Daredevil has faced so far.

The Hand have a badly written conspiracy, to be sure, but it's something that seems to have roots that could take the plot places if the writers upped their game. Whereas Fisk is small potatoes who, at the moment, is trying to figure out how to not be small potatoes.

On the off change that in some point in the future they do have one of the Avengers encounter the Kingpin (which they won't), the best way would be to not have them encounter him at all, but to have them face a villain who mentions they run their tech through New York or have it mentioned that the villain has connections around the world - name dropping Kingpin.

Even so, a better match is someone like Spider-Man, who could fight his gang in a cold-open similar to the one in Amazing 2. Or maybe Ant-Man: dealing with supervillain-based organized crime seems right up his alley.

edited 17th Jul '16 11:15:58 AM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#60498: Jul 17th 2016 at 11:15:12 AM

To what end?

Fisk is not a threat to the Avengers. He can only thrive as a character by the fact that he's a street-level threat. You are correct that characters like Captain America or Iron Man have crossed paths with pirates, smugglers, arms dealers, etc. but those characters do not threaten them.

At no point during the battle between the Avengers and Ultron's force was Klaue ever considered a serious contender. When Captain America crossed fists with Batroc, he dominated the fight so completely that he even rose to the challenge of putting down his shield and still crushed Batroc with barely any effort.

The Kingpin wouldn't be any different. He's nowhere near the level of challenging an Avenger, let alone all the Avengers.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#60499: Jul 17th 2016 at 11:16:42 AM

Why the insistence that he has to fight them to have a role? Again, the idea that to be important to the universe one has to be function as a major threat to every character within it is flawed.

Also, out of curiousity, why the insistence on all the Avengers at once? So far the team-up movies are the minority in the MCU. It's hyperbolic and diminishes the verse.

To clarify, by arms dealers I was thinking Stane, Hammer, the Ten Rings, etc - who were a threat to Tony because of what they could do - Hammer is a joke, but he creates a major situation for Tony, for example. In general, the idea that arms dealers aren't a threat to Tony doesn't make a lot of sense, given that the whole Iron Man series is - thematically - Tony vs arms dealers, himself vs his past.

And Batroc is the MCU's best current example of a Small Role, Big Impact - he is, in essence, exactly what I'm talking about - he's not a physical threat to Cap, but in the actual plot he's used in a way that fits him in perfectly and adds flavor to the verse. Same with Klaue.

edited 17th Jul '16 11:23:49 AM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60500: Jul 17th 2016 at 11:28:20 AM

Why the insistence that he has to fight them to have a role? Again, the idea that to be important to the universe one has to be function as a major threat to every character within it is flawed.

Yes, it is. There is no reason why the Kingpin should ever have to cross paths with an Avenger to be considered "important to the universe". He doesn't need to find some way to throw down with Tony Stark; he's fine where he is, as a street-level threat for street-level characters to deal with.

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