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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60251: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:56:42 PM

"Psychic powers aren't illegal, but using psychic powers to force people to do things is." Uh, no, it isn't.

Yes it is. I'm pretty sure tampering with someone's mental state is illegal. Why do you think Kilgrave was a villain.

[up]You got any proof she didn't know he'd go on a rampage?

edited 6th Jul '16 1:57:18 PM by windleopard

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#60252: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:57:02 PM

Criminal act or not, deliberately interfering with the brain of a man who turns into a giant green smashing machine when stressed is an incredibly stupid thing to do.

But to be honest, ALL of the Avengers could be tarred with a similar brush: Tony invented weapons that still kill people even today, Natasha did some really shady shit prior to her turn (Hawkeye was originally sent to kill her), Thor's fight with his brother lead almost directly to the destruction of a small town and a considerable fraction of New York, there's everything Cap did in Civil War... really the only one without anything (that we know of) that's not at least grey is Vision and perhaps Hawkeye, though in saying that, he was sent to kill Natasha. That's not a job you give to an amateur...

Basically, ALL the Avengers could do with accounting for the consequences of their acts. Not just Wanda. Not put to trial but at least acknowledge that 'We're superheroes!' is not a get out of jail free card.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60253: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:58:47 PM

In Natasha's case at least, there was official paperwork involved and her pardons were granted by a legal authority while Wanda's was not.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60254: Jul 6th 2016 at 2:03:10 PM

Yes it is. I'm pretty sure tampering with someone's mental state is illegal. Why do you think Kilgrave was a villain.
Drugging someone is illegal, "using psychic powers" is not, because most people don't believe in psychic powers. That's why it was so important that Jessica Jones prove that Kilgrave existed and he control people's minds, so she could prove that Hope wasn't in control. Because Hope just saying "I was under mind control" means nothing. Since Kilgrave was killed before it could be proven, however, there is no precedent to the mind control defense and "using psychic powers" is still not illegal.

In Natasha's case at least, there was official paperwork involved and her pardons were granted by a legal authority while Wanda's was not.
That legal authority being SHIELD who was secretly Hydra.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60255: Jul 6th 2016 at 2:32:23 PM

Drugging someone is illegal, "using psychic powers" is not, because most people don't believe in psychic powers. That's why it was so important that Jessica Jones prove that Kilgrave existed and he control people's minds, so she could prove that Hope wasn't in control. Because Hope just saying "I was under mind control" means nothing. Since Kilgrave was killed before it could be proven, however, there is no precedent to the mind control defense and "using psychic powers" is still not illegal.

We are talking about Wanda using her powers for malicious intent not what most people believe in. Most probably didn't believe in Loki but he was still held by SHIELD for his crimes and there is documented proof of the existence of Wanda's powers.

I don't see why you;re trying so hard to act like what Wanda did wasn't wrong.

That legal authority being SHIELD who was secretly Hydra.

Not all of SHIELD was Hydra and even then at least with Natasha there was an attempt to use legal channels.

edited 6th Jul '16 2:33:25 PM by windleopard

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60256: Jul 6th 2016 at 2:48:33 PM

I'm sick of this argument. I say hang them both.

One Strip! One Strip!
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60258: Jul 6th 2016 at 2:53:57 PM

But wouldn't Banner just hulk out?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#60259: Jul 6th 2016 at 2:58:56 PM

Drugging someone is illegal

Not In Arrow. tongue[lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#60260: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:01:55 PM

Jessica Jones had the implication that once they proved within reason that Kilgrave had powers and may have used them on Hope that it would be acceptable, if unprecedented, to use that as a defense for Hope and/or to charge Kilgrave in those grounds.

Or in short, that it would have been illegal (or at least, they would've established precedent) once they got the judge/jury to accept it.

The issue wasn't that using psychic powers to mind control wasn't a valid crime, it was that it was a crime nobody had ever experienced before and it's effectively impossible to even prove it exists. They had to go to extreme lengths to prove that he even had them, and even after that there was the issue of proving that Hope actually did do what she did because he forced her rather than on her own - which they never actually got to.

It's worth noting that, even if Kilgrave wasn't charged, if Jessica and co had managed to bring him into he light he probably would've gotten SHIELD/HYDRA's attention since at that point they had (classified) experience about how easy mind control is possible - they believed it, and what they believe matters. If the HYDRA leadership didn't try to control him, SHIELD would've tried to bring him in.

edited 6th Jul '16 3:06:17 PM by KnownUnknown

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60261: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:03:53 PM

[up]X4

Fair enough.

[up]X3

Good point. Alright. Launch them both into space. Banner on a Space ship, and make it so that the space ship hits Wanda on the way out.

Problem solved.

One Strip! One Strip!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60262: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:06:18 PM

"Not all of SHIELD was Hydra and even then at least with Natasha there was an attempt to use legal channels. "

Wanda wasnt a agent of Hydra? is funny how Cap team have 3 ex agent of hydra with himtongue.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60263: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:14:06 PM

We are talking about Wanda using her powers for malicious intent not what most people believe in. Most probably didn't believe in Loki but he was still held by SHIELD for his crimes and there is documented proof of the existence of Wanda's powers.
Using her powers still isn't illegal. And SHIELD was able to hold Loki because, get this, he wasn't human. So he had no human rights.

I don't see why you;re trying so hard to act like what Wanda did wasn't wrong.
Again: what she did was definitely wrong. Just not provable to be illegal in a court of law.

Not all of SHIELD was Hydra and even then at least with Natasha there was an attempt to use legal channels.
The US Government declared all of SHIELD to be a terrorist organization, not just "some" of it. They later changed that, but still.

But wouldn't Banner just hulk out?
...he did?

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60264: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:16:00 PM

My comment about Banner hulking out was in reference to Rob's joke about hanging Wanda and Bruce.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60265: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:18:51 PM

Seriously, it is a ridiculous strawman you are clinging to that "Using her powers isn't illegal." No one's saying it is. But using her powers in that specific way is.

Shooting lasers out of your eyes isn't illegal either. But if you used laser eyes to burn people to death, you would be tried for murder. It doesn't matter what implements you use to commit a crime, it's still a crime.

Did you know there are no laws against using an M16A2 assault rifle to kill someone? There doesn't need to be. Because the act of killing someone is already a crime, regardless of the tool used to commit that crime.

It's the same situation here. There does not have to be laws against using psychic powers to involuntarily intoxicate others and coerce them to commit crimes. Involuntary intoxication and using coercion to commit crimes are already crimes, with or without the psychic powers.

The use of superpowers in criminal activity does not make that activity cease to be a crime. If it did, no supervillain could ever spend a day in jail.

edited 6th Jul '16 3:20:44 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60266: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:34:16 PM

It's the same situation here. There does not have to be laws against using psychic powers to involuntarily intoxicate others and coerce them to commit crimes.
Except, again, it's not "involuntary intoxication." There is no intoxication involved.

To use your example:

  • If Wanda used her psychic powers to kill someone, she would definitely go to jail. Because murder is illegal.
  • But if Wanda used her powers to cause hallucinations in someone, what would happen? Is "causing hallucinations" illegal? It wouldn't be "involuntary intoxication" becuase, get this, they aren't intoxicated. So, again, what's illegal?

The use of superpowers in criminal activity does not make that activity cease to be a crime. If it did, no supervillain could ever spend a day in jail.
In comics, supervillains are sent to jail because most of them commit murders and robberies with their powers and those things are illegal. But, again, what did Wanda do to the Avengers? She didn't kill them and she didn't rob them. She made them dream.

It just happened to turn out that Hulk's dream turned into a rampage. She wasn't controlling him, though. Did she cause the rampage? Or was the rampage simply because he was the Hulk? Again, none of the other Avengers became violent.

edited 6th Jul '16 3:35:53 PM by alliterator

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#60267: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:42:07 PM

And, again, can you prove Wanda even did anything to the Hulk to make him rampage? We know as the audience that she's responsible for that, but do her powers leave any evidence of their use on him? As far as they know in-universe, it was just the Hulk being the Hulk.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60268: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:42:50 PM

Like I said: Kill them both.

One Strip! One Strip!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60269: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:45:28 PM

"Launch them both into space. Banner on a Space ship"

they try that in the comic...it didnt work out as they thought....in fact it just piss him out even more....

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60270: Jul 6th 2016 at 3:47:38 PM

Yeah, I know all about that.

But you see, that's why you have the ship hit Wanda. That'll placate him long enough for things to not go bad.tongue

Everybody (except Tony, Bucky and the people of Wakanda, South Africa....and eventually all of Earth once Thanos roflstomps their faces in) is happy.

....So really, nobody is happy.

Fine. Fuck them all anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#60271: Jul 6th 2016 at 6:06:03 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Intoxication is a state in which ones ability to reason and act with appropriate caution is impaired. It is strongly associated with but not solely connected to being drunk: from what I can tell being drugged or - most relevant in this case - affected by an outside influence something that impairs as if one were drugged would easily count under a competent judge. Frankly, it wouldn't take much finagling for a judge to declare Wanda's powers a form of drug or poison anyway.

Forced someone to undergo hallucinations or introducing an outside influence cause one to lose control of your emotions, especially, is not something one would go free for simply because there Ain't No Rule for the exact method of doing it. Especially if it results in injury, property damage or death.

If anyone died, Wanda's at least guilty of manslaughter, while Bruce has a decent defense.

edited 6th Jul '16 6:07:46 PM by KnownUnknown

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60272: Jul 6th 2016 at 6:10:39 PM

So how come when I write this interesting theory, only one person says something, but as soon as it gets back to who did what, who's guilty, and why this person is awful, we suddenly get multiple pages?

All of you should only talk about the topics I think are relevant!

One Strip! One Strip!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#60273: Jul 6th 2016 at 7:24:00 PM

The Doctor Strange prequel came out today and apparently has two characters possibly foreshadowing future MCU heroes: Brother Voodoo's older brother and Nico Minoru's mom.

They also note that the Eye of Agamotto is described in ways very similar to Loki's Scepter.

edited 6th Jul '16 7:24:58 PM by comicwriter

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60275: Jul 6th 2016 at 7:40:23 PM

Holy crap, Nico's mom! Sweet Jebus! I really hope we get Runaways in Phase 4.


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