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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60226: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:10:41 PM

Alcohol isn't illegal in the United States, but tricking someone into getting blackout drunk and then making them commit a crime still puts the culpability for the crime on you instead of them.

The law is not stupid. It's flexible, and this is precisely why. You can't trick it out of justice by making stubborn appeals that, say, there's no law against shooting people with this specific model of gun. Just because the mind-altering substance Wanda used has not been criminalized does not mean that Bruce was not involuntarily intoxicated under the influence of a mind-altering substance.

edited 6th Jul '16 12:11:35 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60227: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:11:35 PM

You can with a good enough lawyer.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60228: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:13:27 PM

"But your Honor, all my client did was give Bruce Banner was dreams. It was he who stepped into the city and destroyed it. My client had no control over him."

To which, the prosecution would ask, "what was the purpose and nature of these dreams and what did my client think would happen when she used them on someone of Bruce Banner's mental state?"

All the other instances involve people going catatonic, not violent.

All those other people weren't rage powered monsters. And as mentioned before, Banner never came into the conflict until the twins brought him into it. The twins make a pretty big deal of trying to fuck over the Avengers anyway they can.

In the beginning of Age of Ultron, he was clearly destroying stuff for the good guys.

Irrelevant. He was still destroying stuff.

edited 6th Jul '16 12:13:39 PM by windleopard

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60229: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:15:43 PM

Also, it is inaccurate to say everyone went catatonic. The first person she used her powers on was Tony Stark and he, under her influence, built a murderbot. The precedent was already established that different people react differently.

Even if it wasn't, it was still her drugs. Best case scenario, you establish enough reasonable doubt that she didn't know what would happen, and her counts of murder get kicked down to manslaughter. Still a crime.

edited 6th Jul '16 12:16:41 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60230: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:16:35 PM

Of course, the defense could argue that Stark was already working on Ultron before Wanda's attack.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60231: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:21:53 PM

And that Banner was complicit in Ultron since he was working on it too and he hadn't even been affected yet.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60232: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:24:05 PM

"I would like to see Hulk run into Wanda, I doubt he'd be happy about it outside of an instant end of the world situation. "

Actually,Iater in the movie when Cap enter to Stop Tony from creating V Iison, Banner grab Wanda and said "come on, see in head how angry im " is quite a shock because is BANNER the one who is pissed, that show you how much he think of the situation.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#60233: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:26:43 PM

Sure and they could probably get off on the Ultron charges, but it sets a precedent that Wanda's powers have unpredictable results. At a minimume she assulted Bruce Banner and forcefully altered his mental state to a dangerous level.

There's an argument for saying that Bruce Banner didn't walk into the city, the Hulk did, whoever induces the Hulk is responsible for his actions, that means Wanda in South Africa, Banner in New York and Harlem, the Avengers in other situations and so on.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60234: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:29:34 PM

I don't even see why Wanda would be held accountable for Ultron. Tony and Bruce were already in the process of making Ultron. Tony was already intending on using the scepter to make Ultron. All Wanda did was freak Tony out with a vision where everyone was dying and Chris Evans somehow turned into a bad actor for a few seconds.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60235: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:30:33 PM

Also, there's a point to be made that, "The Hulk automatically means indiscriminate destruction and rampage" hasn't been true since the Battle for New York - where he proved in front of multiple eyewitnesses that he has control over his transformation - so there's that as well. The Hulk may be a Person of Mass Destruction, but he's been a well-targeted one for a while now. The South African rampage is uncharacteristic behavior for him, which would not look good for any defense predicated on the idea that Wanda just triggered the change and everything else was all Banner.

The only other time Banner's lashed out like this since he spent years mastering the Hulk, he was under the influence of Loki's scepter - a mind-altering substance.

edited 6th Jul '16 12:34:05 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60236: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:34:18 PM

I mean, I'm largely sympathetic to Wanda and even I'm not really happy about what she did in South Africa.

[up]

No, he lashed out because he was deliberately trying to keep from hulking out in the middle of an attack. That's the point of him being able to control the transformation: if it's unwilling, the Hulk is a mindless rampaging beast, but if it's willing, he has more control over the Hulk.

edited 6th Jul '16 12:35:43 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#60237: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:47:08 PM

I don't know how you could prove in a court of law that Hulk trashed Johannesburg because a crazy psychic lady tampered with his mind to make him break shit. The only "evidence" would be Banner's testimony, and that's not evidence any more than "The devil made me do it!" is evidence in more mundane trials.

It's like Kilgrave all over again. Or, well, Kilgrave is Wanda all over again, since Age of Ultron came out first, but you get what I mean.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60238: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:50:07 PM

Because unlike Kilgrave, the crazy psychic lady's powers and involvement in high-profile combat zones have been thoroughly documented. There is no question to be had over whether or not Wanda Maximoff exists and can do a variety of weird shit with her powers, up to and including f*cking with people's minds.

Like, Maria Hill actually has paperwork on her. Files from the people who created her abilities and tested their limitations. Very official.

EDIT: Also, the biggest flaw in the "Well, you can't prove it, so we can abuse the law like true heroes," argument: it assumes Wanda would fight the charges. I propose that Wanda's trial would not be about whether or not she did it. It would be about whether or not her service to the Avengers warrants special consideration in her sentencing.

edited 6th Jul '16 12:54:19 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60239: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:59:02 PM

Honestly, I think Wanda would go for whatever punishment they give her, but then Cap or someone would be able to talk the judge into toning it down or something.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#60240: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:01:35 PM

[up][up]Oh, they've been documented for sure, which would probably absolve the Hulk on ground of reasonable doubt, but I don't think you could solidly convict Wanda herself just because Banner said so.

The question is if Wanda would fight the charges or not. I can see her being guilty enough to want to make up for her past but not enough to be willing to go to jail for it.

edited 6th Jul '16 1:01:52 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#60241: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:02:29 PM

It occurs that Wanda joined the team shortly before the Hulk left it.

The Avengers replaced custody of one person that probably should be in jail with another.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#60242: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:05:48 PM

I am really tired of this. Wanda wouldn't be tried by the laws of the US, because she isn't an US citizen, for starters. And she would hardly be the first person who was fighting on the opposite side of a war but get free for the action taken in said war, because of useful talents. We have done this multiple times in our history and it has happened multiple times in the MCU. Natasha is one example of that, and you could argue that Tony is too, considering that his damned company was delivering weapons to the enemies of the state. Wanda is hardly Grant Ward, so I have zero issues with her getting a second chance doing community service, so to speak.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60243: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:09:27 PM

Alcohol isn't illegal in the United States, but tricking someone into getting blackout drunk and then making them commit a crime still puts the culpability for the crime on you instead of them.
Except for the fact this is actually illegal. The law isn't as flexible as you think - you need precedent or else you risk having your case thrown out. Also, are Wanda's powers classified as an "intoxicant"? Are they even a drug?

To which, the prosecution would ask, "what was the purpose and nature of these dreams and what did my client think would happen when she used them on someone of Bruce Banner's mental state?"
"The purpose of these dreams was to shut down the Avengers. My client certainly had no idea that the Hulk would go on a rampage."

Also, it is inaccurate to say everyone went catatonic. The first person she used her powers on was Tony Stark and he, under her influence, built a murderbot.
She made him see hallucinations, but he came up with Ultron on his own. I thought that was clear from the movie.

Even if it wasn't, it was still her drugs.
Unless Wanda's powers are now classified as "drugs," it wasn't.

Again: what is wrong is different from what you can prove in a court of law.

I don't know how you could prove in a court of law that Hulk trashed Johannesburg because a crazy psychic lady tampered with his mind to make him break shit.
Exactly. Even if Wanda told the truth, "psychic powers" aren't illegal. They would have to go back all the way to witch laws and that would be a bad thing.

Natasha is one example of that, and you could argue that Tony is too, considering that his damned company was delivering weapons to the enemies of the state.
Exactly. Tony's weapons killed Wanda's parents. He didn't wield them, but they were made and sold by his company. Kind of paralleling what Wanda herself did, now isn't it?

edited 6th Jul '16 1:12:42 PM by alliterator

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#60244: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:18:33 PM

Sure but when people who fought on the opposite side of a war are let off we generally have some paperwork involved, there's a procedure.

Should Wanda probably be pardoned? Yeah she should, but she should have to recive a pardon, not just get away without facing a trial.

Also we don't exactly look kindly upon the government's in the past that let war criminals go free.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60245: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:21:38 PM

"The purpose of these dreams was to shut down the Avengers. My client certainly had no idea that the Hulk would go on a rampage."

This at best makes her guilty of reckless endangerment. One could also argue that she didn't need to go after Banner as the other Avengers were already shut down. The twins could have left while they were still occupied.

Exactly. Even if Wanda told the truth, "psychic powers" aren't illegal. They would have to go back all the way to witch laws and that would be a bad thing.

It isn't the psychic powers that are illegal, it's what Wanda does with them. And as Tobias Drake stated, there is documented evidence of what she can do.

Exactly. Tony's weapons killed Wanda's parents. He didn't wield them, but they were made and sold by his company. Kind of paralleling what Wanda herself did, now isn't it?

Not even close. In Wanda's case the weapons used (her powers) were wielded by her.

edited 6th Jul '16 1:22:37 PM by windleopard

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60246: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:32:02 PM

It isn't the psychic powers that are illegal, it's what Wanda does with them. And as Tobias Drake stated, there is documented evidence of what she can do.
"Psychic powers aren't illegal, but using psychic powers to force people to do things is." Uh, no, it isn't.

Not even close. In Wanda's case the weapons used (her powers) were wielded by her.
Wanda put the whammy on the Hulk. It was the Hulk who went on a rampage. Tony made the weapons and sold the weapons. It was those who bought the weapons that went on a rampage.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60247: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:45:14 PM

[up]Hulk IS the weapon, she put it in that state so it could go on a rampage, is waaaay diferent than that

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60248: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:47:03 PM

[up] And Tony Stark sold weapons that were used to kill civilians. Same thing.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60249: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:54:55 PM

Your analogy would make sense is Stark himself personally dropped those weapons among civilians which is not the case. Hell, he didn't even know who some of his weapons were being secretly sold to.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60250: Jul 6th 2016 at 1:56:31 PM

So because he didn't personally know his weapons were being sold, he's not responsible for them? Ah, just like Wanda isn't personally responsible since she didn't know the Hulk would go on a rampage!

edited 6th Jul '16 1:56:39 PM by alliterator


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