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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60201: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:18:32 AM

[up][up][up]

A bit better, I suppose.

I don't see much punishment for Bucky, though. Like, I can kind of understand with Tony, but they portray him as so sympathetic that it plays more into the gray morality of the film. Bucky is repeatedly shown to have been brainwashed and is excused from his actions. It's Bucky himself who won't let it go and in the end, it's his decision to be put on ice.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:19:07 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60202: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:20:49 AM

[up]X5

See that makes sense, and I'd like it because I like Wanda.

But since, I'm rather bloodthirsty at times, and I'm kinda sick of Protagonist-Centered Morality myself (plus I think sometimes you just gotta pay your dues), I think I'd prefer it if people demanded Wanda's execution for her crimes, and any attempt to get her off failed. Just to subvert that trope.

Of course, doing something like that out of spite is the reason I'm not writing any Marvel movies.

Edit: Damn. I got Nobu'ed.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:21:37 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60203: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:29:20 AM

It's still not clear to me if Wanda intentionally set the Hulk loose in South Africa. It seems like she might have been trying to put Banner in the same sort of fugue state she put the other Avengers in, but messing around in Bruce's mind had some unfortunate consequences.

That wouldn't have been necessary. He wasn't part of the conflict until the Twins dragged him into it. She specifically tells Pietro to stick to the plan and, "Bring me the big one." It's pretty unambiguous.

Also, having Tony Stark speak at her trial would also give an opportunity for the much-needed closure between the Twins and Stark that Age of Ultron never gave us.

  • Wanda: You did not have to do that. I already have Captain America's testimony to my defense, and I am ready to face my charges.
  • Tony: Yeah, but you're a good kid. You deserve better than to have the book thrown at you.
  • Wanda: My brother hated you, you know. We both held the grudge, but he especially hated you. Our childhood was wrecked by your weapons. Our parents were murdered and our home destroyed. We spent three days staring at an unexploded Stark missile, trapped under the rubble, wondering when it would get us. We've only ever known you as a greedy, egotistical murderer.
  • Tony: Well, you weren't wrong. We all have things to make up for, Wanda.
  • Wanda: You can't take back what you've done. I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive you.
  • Tony: Join the club, but that's not why I'm here today. I'm here because every time I look at you, I see myself staring back. And I think you deserve the same chance I got.

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60204: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:30:29 AM

[up][up][up]Because it was still him when kills Stark parent, he still remenber that moment and still haunt him and as Zemo show, he still hydra tool that can be manipulated by others.

"It's still not clear to me if Wanda intentionally set the Hulk loose in South Africa."

It is actually, after she is shock by Haweye, Pietro grab her asking if she is fine, she answer yes and them said there is another avenger left, also Ultron make clear his plan was to use Hulk as distraction so he can steal the Adamantium in peace.

And more important, latter in the movie Hulk grap Wanda and said "Come on, try to see if Im angry right now" is the first and so far, only moment when BANNER is angry at something.

Also, even if we take Hulk out of the picture, there is fact Wanda put the team in traumatic state of being, with Cap and Natasha facing their past which Allow Ultron to get away with it.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:31:42 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60205: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:30:34 AM

[up][up]

Somebody pitch this to Marvel as a one-shot or a comic set between the movies or something. And make sure Tobias writes it, because god damn this is awesome.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:31:10 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60206: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:32:07 AM

That would have been pretty nice actually. And while I like to think something like that happened off screen, I'm thinking it was more or less forgotten about.

One Strip! One Strip!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60207: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:33:46 AM

[up][up][up]

That's nothing like Tony's mistakes still haunting him. Bucky was brainwashed against his will, he literally can't help it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60208: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:34:54 AM

[up][up]on the other hand that sound to nice of her, I mean I dont want her to suffer but someone else to point how she become a weapon of Hydra and them join forces with another weapon and used Hulk as one.

[up]And yet is his responsability to make something, that is why he turn himself over Wakanda, he dosent want to be murder tool of someone else.

Also didn Russo brother make interview answer why they make that choice with Bucky? I think is the same one where they said Wanda didn meant to do those thinks in Ao U

edited 6th Jul '16 10:40:51 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60209: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:13:52 AM

How long before Rhodey's back and there are just two War Machine's running around ?
Riri isn't the new War Machine. She's the new Iron Man.

Her brother dying is wholly irrelevant to the crime she has committed against the people of South Africa. Her nation has also collapsed, which is also irrelevant to her crime against South Africa. The only thing that matters in the context of her crime against South Africa is that she face justice in South Africa, like literally any other person would have to do.
Then let me ask you a question: what crime did she commit? What exactly did she do? Did she let the Hulk loose? But the Hulk has been loose before and nobody has blamed Banner for its rampages. Did she cause the Hulk to go on a rampage? I mean, she sent the other characters into hallucinations, but none of them became violent. They became mostly catatonic. So, really, what exactly was her crime? Giving Bruce Banner hallucinations? Hmm, that doesn't exactly seem illegal to me.

You may say that South Africa deserves justice, but, again, "justice" is wholely subjective. What, exactly, did Wanda do that was illegal? (I'm not saying it wasn't amoral, but legality is an entirely different issue.)

edited 6th Jul '16 11:14:41 AM by alliterator

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#60210: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:31:01 AM

That wouldn't have been necessary. He wasn't part of the conflict until the Twins dragged him into it. She specifically tells Pietro to stick to the plan and, "Bring me the big one." It's pretty unambiguous.

Their plan was to get revenge on Tony Stark (and, at Ulton's urging, the rest of the Avengers by proxy). I figured making the Avengers hallucinate their worst fears was sort of a goal in its own right.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60211: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:35:29 AM

[up]She could have Kill Tony in the hydra castle, instead she wait, saying his own fears will destroy him which kick start the whole damn event to being with.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60212: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:38:28 AM

Then let me ask you a question: what crime did she commit? What exactly did she do? Did she let the Hulk loose? But the Hulk has been loose before and nobody has blamed Banner for its rampages. Did she cause the Hulk to go on a rampage? I mean, she sent the other characters into hallucinations, but none of them became violent. They became mostly catatonic. So, really, what exactly was her crime? Giving Bruce Banner hallucinations? Hmm, that doesn't exactly seem illegal to me.

You may say that South Africa deserves justice, but, again, "justice" is wholely subjective. What, exactly, did Wanda do that was illegal? (I'm not saying it wasn't amoral, but legality is an entirely different issue.)

Let me answer that question with a question.

Bob forces Alice to consume a mind-altering narcotic. Alice, under the influence of the drug she unwillingly consumed, loses control of herself and murders several people.

Who would go to jail? Alice or Bob?

There is no ambiguity in this situation. Strip away the Fantastic elements, and Wanda is directly responsible for compromising Bruce's mental capacity. She is legally responsible for everything he did under the influence of the mind-altering effects he did not willingly imbibe.

edited 6th Jul '16 11:40:47 AM by TobiasDrake

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#60213: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:39:20 AM

Hell you don't even need a trial, just have Cap, Tony or even Ross come in and say something to the effect of "I've spoken to the South African goverment/ICC/UN and after Sokovia and everything you did to help us/the Avengers save the planet they've decided not to press charges, you've suffered enough kid". Hell you could even make it a minor plot point, have Tony get mad at Wanda and point out that he was the one that got her a second chance after South Africa and that she's throwing that away by joining Cap.

But they never do that, South Africa is treated purely as if it was Banner's fault.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60214: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:46:04 AM

How old was Wanda supposed to be in Ao U? If she's a teenager that might determine what sanction she should have received.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60215: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:46:24 AM

There is no ambiguity in this situation. Strip away the Fantastic elements, and Wanda is directly responsible for compromising Bruce's mental capacity.
Except you can't strip away the Fantastic elements. Without the Fantastic elements, there's no Hulk, no hallucinations.

And you didn't answer my question: what crime, exactly, did Wanda commit? And what would a South Africa court possibly find her guilty of?

edited 6th Jul '16 11:47:33 AM by alliterator

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#60216: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:49:55 AM

You absolutely can take away the fantastic elements. Just take the Alice and Bob hypothetical but give Alice a gun or other weapon that would allow her to maim/kill a big bunch of people, and it's exactly the same thing.

Wanda is responsible for unleashing the Hulk, and for putting Hulk in a state where he went after civilians/police officers rather than a bad guy. You don't even need to strip away the fantastical elements, she's guilty as sin because she willfully started a Hulk episode, never mind that she never shows regret for everyone who must've gotten hurt or worse. She might as well have collapsed the buildings herself, because it's a situation she knowingly and purposefully instigated.

At best (with a really sleazy lawyer) she might get conspiracy or something, but truthfully it's more like a terrorist act.

edited 6th Jul '16 11:50:59 AM by Khfan429

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60217: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:52:29 AM

You absolutely can take away the fantastic elements. Just take the Alice and Bob hypothetical but give Alice a gun or other weapon that would allow her to maim/kill a big bunch of people, and it's exactly the same thing.
No, you can't. A person is responsible for a gun. They can fire it or not. Bruce Banner has no choice when he becomes the Hulk. That is a fantastical element that you cannot remove. Wanda isn't making someone "fire a gun," she's turning Banner into the Hulk. Which she doesn't know what will happen. The Hulk has wrecked cities before and he's also not done that. Again: it's a fantastical element you can't remove.

edited 6th Jul '16 11:52:45 AM by alliterator

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#60218: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:54:43 AM

what crime, exactly, did Wanda commit? And what would a South Africa court possibly find her guilty of?

Negligent homicide, reckless endangerment, possibly terrorism. She deliberately unleashed a destructive force upon a civilian population.

Now she never got tried because she and the other Avengers just acted like it didn't happen. They say on the information because Bruce was gone already so they let him take the fall for it.

I would like to see Hulk run into Wanda, I doubt he'd be happy about it outside of an instant end of the world situation.

Which she doesn't know what will happen.

She knows that her powers can and have caused people to act irrationally and without proper thought, she might not know with certainty but she could certainly be argued to have had reasonable grounds to suspect what would happen.

Hell even if it was an honest accident, where's the remorse? Where the sorrow and guilt?

edited 6th Jul '16 11:56:51 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#60219: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:55:29 AM

Bruce was the primary witness too.

edited 6th Jul '16 11:55:39 AM by Bocaj

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#60220: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:55:49 AM

Are you seriously trying to argue right now that coercion to commit crimes achieved by way of involuntary intoxication isn't a crime?

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Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#60221: Jul 6th 2016 at 11:57:18 AM

[up][up][up][up]And when someone's under a mind-altering substance, you essentially remove the element of choice, or at least distort it to the point where functionally they aren't making a conscious choice. It's why roofieing someone is a huge no-no, you take away their ability to make a choice!

And no, there's never been an instance where Hulk doesn't destroy stuff. Hulk Smash is kind of his entire fucking schtick, even when he's fighting unambiguously villainous people stuff gets destroyed. Now you're straight-up making things up.

edited 6th Jul '16 11:58:44 AM by Khfan429

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#60222: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:02:00 PM

It does occur that bringing charges against Wanda might have opened up the Avengers to problems too for carting around Hulk as a win button and then letting him run off

We do know that people aren't happy about that second one

Although ass-covering isn't a great superheroic move. But it is one that the Avengers do a lot of.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60223: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:02:11 PM

Yeah. Legally, Bruce would be tried and acquitted of his crimes in South Africa on grounds of involuntary intoxication, which is a pretty cut-and-dry defense.

Involuntary intoxication is one of the multitude of legal defenses available for Stark's creation of Ultron too, while we're at it.

Wanda, however, would be considered legally culpable for every crime Bruce committed while under the influence of her psychic mind-altering powers.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#60224: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:03:44 PM

I now kinda want Bruce to come back and contact his cousin for legal help proving that South Africa was not his fault.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60225: Jul 6th 2016 at 12:06:10 PM

Negligent homicide, reckless endangerment, possibly terrorism. She deliberately unleashed a destructive force upon a civilian population.
"But your Honor, all my client did was give Bruce Banner some dreams. It was he who stepped into the city and destroyed it. My client had no control over him."

She knows that her powers can and have caused people to act irrationally and without proper thought
All the other instances involve people going catatonic, not violent.

Are you seriously trying to argue right now that coercion to commit crimes achieved by way of involuntary intoxication isn't a crime?
If she had drugged him, sure. But she didn't. Where is the law that says you can't give someone magical hallucinations?

And no, there's never been an instance where Hulk doesn't destroy stuff.
In the beginning of Age of Ultron, he was clearly destroying stuff for the good guys, not just willy-nilly.

Wanda, however, would be considered legally culpable for every crime Bruce committed while under the influence of her psychic mind-altering powers.
If "psychic powers" were illegal in South Africa, which they aren't.

I'm not saying that Wanda is guiltless, I'm saying that you can't prove it in a court of law.

edited 6th Jul '16 12:09:33 PM by alliterator


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