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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60176: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:45:11 AM

I'd also say this news doesn't belong int the thread, since whoever this is isn't in an MCU film.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60177: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:47:54 AM

[up][up]Is not much that I hate wanda but how both movie seen to let out what she did which for me tainted a little bit Civil war consider it hit both Tony and Bucky for what they did

Funny thing, fandom dosent to have anything against Movie wanda even when they should be

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60178: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:50:35 AM

I'm sure other people have their reasons for liking her, but I'm not spinning this into a Wanda debate.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#60179: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:50:48 AM

Aaaand...time to change the topic. In honour of the awesome grave inscriptions in the HISHE video:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/keelyflaherty/give-bucky-the-plums?utm_term=.ger1rWDQO#.ouD02WAJG

He only wanted some plums....

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60180: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:50:57 AM

With Wanda and South Africa, that has more to do with the growing resentment against Protagonist-Centered Morality as it applies to the Heel–Face Turn. Specifically, the idea that becoming a Hero wipes a former Villain's slate clean of everything that character did when they were on the side of the demons. That there will be no justice for those who have been harmed by the character's actions because they became a good guy afterward, so f*ck you, victims.

It parallels one of the more cynical takes on Christianity: the last-second conversion. Live a life of sin and debauchery, then convert on your deathbed and BAM, you get into Heaven and suffer no ill consequences for the terrible crimes you spent your life committing. Seems unfair, especially to the victims left in your wake.

It should be noted that this is one of the areas where the Avengers being an illegitimate global militia works against them. It is not uncommon for government agencies to hire specialists out of prison. Criminals who've done an amazing job eluding justice may find themselves staring at a cushy job offer after they've been apprehended, because the government respects those skills and wants to put them to use protecting the country from others like the criminal in question.

Wanda being an Avenger now isn't really that different, but it feels different because Captain America has no authority to unilaterally decide that Wanda is too useful for the people of South Africa to deserve justice. Wanda being granted clemency in exchange for her service is a decision that should be made by South Africa and/or the United Nations, not by a self-appointed American World-Cop.

edited 6th Jul '16 9:51:53 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60181: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:55:03 AM

I could argue that Wanda seemed to kind of have karma come her way through what basically amounts to a Humiliation Conga of her brother getting killed, her causing an international incident, being placed on house arrest, having to deal with a bunch of shit from people calling her a weapon, and then being placed in a straight jacket.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60182: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:57:35 AM

Yeah, I'd say that Wanda's brother dying (partially due to her own actions in supporting Ultron) was pretty much punishment enough.

edited 6th Jul '16 9:57:55 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60183: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:57:36 AM

Yeah, but all that is just life happening to her. That's not justice, it's just a series of unfortunate events occurring - some as a direct consequence of her being a fugitive unlawfully harbored in the Avengers compound. It doesn't satisfy the frustration that she's apparently immune to all laws forever.

No court justice or jury of peers has reviewed her case and gone, "Wow, life really shat on you. Punishment enough, I say."

edited 6th Jul '16 9:58:59 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60184: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:59:14 AM

[up] There is no justice. "Justice" isn't a tangible thing, it's based entirely on the minds of those who want it. Some might say that it is justice that she lost her brother. Some way it's not.

If you are talking about the American court system, well, the incident didn't happen in America, so there's no jurisdiction.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:01:16 AM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60185: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:59:34 AM

I'd continue this train of discussion, but since I am a non-serious person I will just make a joke about how Captain America and Judge Dredd are kind of similar in that they are the law.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#60186: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:00:44 AM

The difference is that Dredd would shoot Spider-Man in the kneecaps if he didn't blow his brains out outright.

My various fanfics.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60187: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:00:55 AM

Yeah, her brother die as casualty of being a hero, not for her action and even them, neither Ao U or CW tie what happen to her action, instead Wanda screw up AGAIN and the movie pretend she never did nothing before, which is kind of double standar consider how Bucky and Tony past life count to hunt them.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60188: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:02:33 AM

Yeah, her brother die as casualty of being a hero, not for her action
If Wanda hadn't worked for Ultron, he wouldn't have gotten far enough in his plan and then he wouldn't have killed Pietro. Sure, it was ultimately Ultron's fault, but Wanda still contributed to it by working for him.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60189: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:04:26 AM

Plus, didn't she have some kind of psychic connection to him?

Like, that's not just dealing with your brother dying, that's literally feeling them dying. They both chose to work with Ultron, and for it they both got karma after trying to fix their fuck up: Pietro died and Wanda had to feel him dying.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60190: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:06:03 AM

[up][up]Even them is a strech consider Ultron did by accident(which is why I consider that death so much bullshit) by targeting Haweye, Pietro die as hero doing what was correct outside wanda accion even if Ultron was part her fault by pushing Stark over the edge.

And even them is still a central protagonist morality, the idea of her losing her brother equal whatever destruction make by Hulk in South africa.

In fact if you take acount what happen there it make Stark decision of house arrest decision based of fear about what she can do.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:06:42 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60191: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:06:19 AM

It doesn't matter. Her brother dying is wholly irrelevant to the crime she has committed against the people of South Africa. Her nation has also collapsed, which is also irrelevant to her crime against South Africa. The only thing that matters in the context of her crime against South Africa is that she face justice in South Africa, like literally any other person would have to do.

This is exactly what I'm talking about regarding Protagonist-Centered Morality. Because she became a superhero, the fandom and writers have agreed that she is automatically absolved of all wrongdoing regarding her terrorist attack against South Africa. And that would be fine if South Africa was allowed a say in the matter.

But they aren't. Instead, Wanda was illegally trafficked into the United States and harbored from justice without citizenship. That is incredibly f*cking shady.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:07:16 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#60192: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:07:21 AM

'How long before comic book fanbros start hating her?'

How long before Rhodey's back and there are just two War Machine's running around ?

(The answer BTW is 'about two months before the next movie he's in comes out' )

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60193: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:09:03 AM

[up][up]Is More than that Tboias: is the issue with Marvel threating tany kind of incident as a persona drama where the chararter feeling back are equal to any damage they create, Wanda action are threat as her "doing bad stuff but now she is good"

[upWell, ]While I dont like to have another "minority chararter related somehow to a big name superhero" I admit I will like to see a black scientist in ficcion

edited 6th Jul '16 10:13:44 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60194: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:09:08 AM

I do agree that she should have faced some degree of punishment for her actions. I'm more peeved that Unknowing keeps throwing around the Moral Event Horizon trope in regards to Wanda.

[up]

For Christ's sake, fix your spelling, please. It's hard to even discuss this stuff with you without having to guess just what you're typing.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:10:06 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#60195: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:11:30 AM

[up] It's just a bit galling that the movie that's supposed to ask us 'Just how much should we trust heroes ? How many rules can we let them break?' pretty much treats Wanda's feeling bad about S.Africa as punishment enough.

English is his second language.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:11:55 AM by thatindiantroper

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#60196: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:12:25 AM

Galling, I suppose. Irredeemably evil? Kind of going full Ron the Death Eater there.

I know English is his second language, it's still impossible to fully comprehend what he's saying.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:12:52 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60197: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:15:15 AM

Yes. She is by no means irredeemable. The best outcome for her would have been, like, a news report or something stating that the ICC convened to determine the fate of Wanda Maximoff in the wake of the Sokovia incident and, after Captain America delivered a stirring commendation of her actions, it has been decided that Wanda is to be remanded to his custody to serve a reduced sentence as a member of the internationally-recognized globe-trotting peacekeeping organization, the Avengers.

Boom. Crimes acknowledged and punished while still allowing her to be a superhero. But that would require the Avengers to not be an illegal self-appointed global paramilitary and instead have some level of legitimacy to their operations.

edited 6th Jul '16 10:16:15 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60198: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:16:02 AM

[up][up]No, but she move from evil to good with little thought while punishing Stark and Bucky for what they did.

also, there I edited, good now?

edited 6th Jul '16 10:17:52 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#60199: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:18:17 AM

It's still not clear to me if Wanda intentionally set the Hulk loose in South Africa. It seems like she might have been trying to put Banner in the same sort of fugue state she put the other Avengers in, but messing around in Bruce's mind had some unfortunate consequences.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#60200: Jul 6th 2016 at 10:18:23 AM

it has been decided that Wanda is to be remanded to his custody to serve a reduced sentence as a member of the internationally-recognized globe-trotting peacekeeping organization, the Avengers

That's always what I thought was going on with Wanda, at least. That her service to the Avengers was partially meant to be her attempt at penance for everything she did for Ultron.

They could've still done a better job making that clearer, and addressing South Africa directly.


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