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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60026: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:41:09 AM

There is as much oversight as any other military secret op. "Oversight" does not mean "The individual citizen gets to weigh in on this." Weapon X is accountable to the Canadian government, not the Canadian public. The Canadian government is what is accountable to the Canadian public. You're trying to skip the middleman and say Weapon X should be accountable to the public. Like, every individual should receive a monthly pamphlet on every secret operation that the public isn't supposed to know about.

That is not how government works.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60027: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:44:46 AM

Weapon X is accountable to the Canadian government, not the Canadian public. The Canadian government is what is accountable to the Canadian public.
But then, according to the transitive property, Weapon X is accountable to the Canadian public. If A = B and B = C, then A = C.

What this means is that Weapon X isn't accountable to the Canadian government, but rather a small subsection of the Canadian government marked "Top Secret" and it is this part of the government which isn't accountable to the Canadian public because they have no idea about it. This isn't democratic, because democracy requires openness and transparency.

Once again: neither the US nor Canada are democracies! Especially not Canada, which still has a queen! (Technically, it's a "federal parliamentary representative democracy under constitutional monarchy.")

edited 28th Jun '16 8:46:31 AM by alliterator

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60028: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:45:31 AM

The entire point of a representative system is so people can, ya know, represent you. If the person didn't run on The Kidnap, Torture and Human Experimentation Platform, they aren't doing their job.

note: I'm not a fan of democracy. Democracy Is Bad is one of the best tropes we have. What I hate is dishonesty. If the government insists on doing whatever the fuck it wants, fine. But don't lie and call yourself a representative government. You are an oligarchy perhaps or maybe some sort of military dictatorship.

edited 28th Jun '16 8:47:14 AM by Nikkolas

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#60029: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:50:40 AM

If that we're truly the case, then we wouldn't have any government officials being forced out of office for misdeeds, which we do. Basically, overreaction much.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60030: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:55:43 AM

Doesn't Canada have a Parliament?

Like, having a Queen doesn't mean you're not democratic. England has a queen. She's responsible for f*ck-all, but she exists. It's their Parliament that determines national policy, however.

And the transitive property doesn't really apply here. Secret ops are just part of a government. Participating in government means acknowledging that you will not be briefed on everything that happens. Voting for a candidate means voting for someone you trust to make the right choices on the things you're not briefed on.

Think of it like nuclear weapons. You, the individual, will never be asked whether you think the country should deploy a nuclear weapon. Your ability to influence that choice is limited to voting for a candidate who shares your opinion on nuclear weapons. When you vote for Nuke-Happy Gandhi or Reasonable Ted, that is how you make your voice heard in advance of the decision.

That's the point of political debates and speeches. They let people know who the people they're voting for are and where they stand on a wide variety of issues, so that people can vote for the person who best represents their ideology and is most likely to make the choices they would want to see made on the countless issues affecting the nation.

Accountability is done link by link in the chain of command. The public voting for the officials they want to see in office is only one of those links.

edited 28th Jun '16 8:57:05 AM by TobiasDrake

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60031: Jun 28th 2016 at 9:01:20 AM

Doesn't Canada have a Parliament?
As I said, technically, it's a "federal parliamentary representative democracy under constitutional monarchy." Still not a democracy.

Voting for a candidate means voting for someone you trust to make the right choices on the things you're not briefed on.
But how do you know what choices they would make if they never come right out and say it? Like, nobody can ask the question "Would you shut down Weapon X" becuase nobody knows about Weapon X. Nobody is asking the question "Would you detain mutants and experiment on them and perhaps insitute some sort of huge genocide against them all in secret?" because that would be insane. And yet, that happened in Marvel Canada.

Think of it like nuclear weapons. You, the individual, will never be asked whether you think the country should deploy a nuclear weapon.
But we, the public, still know about nuclear weapons. We can ask a candidate whether or not they approve or disapprove of using them. As one politician put it, "We don't know what we don't know," i.e. how can we vote for a candidate that we approve of for stuff we have no idea exists?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60032: Jun 28th 2016 at 9:08:38 AM

Just because nobody's asking questions about specific individual instances, doesn't mean nobody's asking questions about the circumstances that resulted in those instances.

"Governor Bromley, what's your opinion on the mutant crisis?"

"I think these mutants are extremely dangerous and there needs to be some kind of government response. Like, there's a guy who can shoot lasers from his eyes. Do you realize how dangerous that is? We need to get on top of this situation. We need a way to control these people. If I'm elected as a federal senator, I will ensure that actions are taken to keep our people, REAL people, safe from the threat posed by these mutants."

And then millions of people vote for him. Because Weapon X didn't just spring up from the ground. It's a product of the public's hate and fear of mutants filtered through the elected officials who rose to power on the "F*ck mutants" platform.

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60033: Jun 28th 2016 at 9:13:19 AM

[up] The problem with that is politicians lie. A lot. So again, the representative you vote for might do things you didn't vote for him to do. In secret, so you don't know about them.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60034: Jun 28th 2016 at 9:19:47 AM

Not as much as you might think. "Politicians lie and are just serving the interests of the businesses that bought them" is certainly a thing that happens here and there, but it's of little actual merit to the political process. It's more of a scapegoat for anti-political people to throw up their arms and go, "All politicians are the same, the system is rigged, your choices are a lie, and there is no such thing as democracy!"

In essence, it's a convenient excuse for giving up. And it's a comforting one because if everything bad that politicians ever do is because they're evil, corrupt dictators who were paid off to do it, then you don't have to face the ugly possibility that maybe the worst face of politics is a reflection of the worst face of the people they represent. That maybe this happened, not because he was secretly a Literal Nazi planning to put everyone in concentration camps, but because he was outright saying he was going to do this for months and people voted for him because they liked the cut of his jib.

At a time when we are actively considering electing Donald Trump, a man whose hate rhetoric towards Muslims, Mexicans, and women has been met by roaring applause, as President of the United States, is it really so hard to accept that the widespread fear and hatred of mutants is responsible for the omnipresence of government officials ready and willing to oppress mutants?

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jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#60035: Jun 28th 2016 at 9:22:38 AM

That would be true in ANY electoral system, and also pretty much impossible to do anything about. You can't force someone to tell the truth, so you have to decide which of the two-faced shysters in the running you like most/dislike least. It's at the very least better than dictatorships - compare the imperfect Western version of democracy to somewhere like North Korea for the difference.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60036: Jun 28th 2016 at 9:27:09 AM

Seriously, watch one of Trump's speeches sometime and imagine he's talking about mutants. That should explain everything about the frequent mutant oppression.

  • Senator Kelly: They're coming here and they're bringing their murderers and their rapists. They're getting in these big explosive battles that are killing people all the time and then where do they go? Nuh uh. Not good. NOT good. So we need to put a stop to it. We need to stop it, we need to shut it down until we can figure out what the hell is going on!

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Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60037: Jun 28th 2016 at 9:27:19 AM

Or maybe they're just pragmatic. I don't recall the Weapon X scientists having mutants, they just recognized what a glorious potential weapon source they could tap into.

No one votes their elected officials in to do secret projects. That's why they are secret projects. No one voted for Iran-Contra. Moreover, as it happens so often in representative government, our elected officials are mostly just pushed along with the tide. Whatever was being done before they got into office will continue being done, no matter how they feel about it.

Yes, it is certainly true that the public must take responsibility for the actions of elected officials. As Plato observed, taking the insights of people who have no idea how a government works in order to run a government is pretty idiotic so no wonder the whole thing is a farce. But again, this whole discussion started because there is absolutely no accountability in Marvel. Weapon X? SHIELD brainwashing camps? All fine, all dandy and not a goddam thing any normal person can do about it.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60038: Jun 28th 2016 at 10:10:26 AM

Not as much as you might think.
It still happens though and there is still a lot of undemocratic things that happen in the US. (Again: the US is not a pure democracy.) Please note: around 90% of Americans approve of increased gun control and yet nothing ever gets passed. And again, the people who do the "secret" things are not even elected, they are appointed.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#60039: Jun 28th 2016 at 10:45:53 AM

Wasn't Weapon X started by a sentient bacteria?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60040: Jun 28th 2016 at 11:15:03 AM

[up] Here's all the info you really need about Weapon X. http://marvel.com/universe/Weapon_X

I'm reminded so hard of what Xavier said in X-Men Evolution when discussing Operation: Rebirth.

Xavier: Perhaps you better tell me exactly what Operation Rebirth was.

Wolverine: Early attempt at genetic engineering; crude but powerful. The idea was to create supersoldiers for World War II.

Xavier: A "Master Race?"

Wolverine: These were the good guys, they didn't mean it like that.

Xavier: Yes,they never do.

And seeing how Rebirth led to Weapon X, Chuck was spot-on.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#60041: Jun 28th 2016 at 11:50:28 AM

Ah, I knew our good ol' buddy ol' pal Sublime was involved.

Also, I thought you meant Chuck Austen and I was taken aback for a second.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#60042: Jun 28th 2016 at 12:19:01 PM

You know, having heard that they just decided to rewrite Wong to be less racist, rather than ditch him altogether? Shit, I already probably know the real answer (hint: it begins with CC and ends with P), but it makes one wonder why they didn't just do the same thing with the Ancient One and avoid all this controversy. And since Wong is a much more prominent figure in the Strange mythos than the Ancient One, it's unlikely to be as simple as "we hate Asian actors and want to draw audiences in with white ones" either.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#60043: Jun 28th 2016 at 2:44:25 PM

Set photos of the Spider-suit. Virtually the same as the Civil War one but with some more lines.

[up]That pesky Tibet problem again.

edited 28th Jun '16 2:45:21 PM by comicwriter

dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#60044: Jun 28th 2016 at 7:35:30 PM

I wonder how strong will be the villain of Spider-man.?

Spiderman is much stronger than the metal arm of Bucky, but weaker than Captain America (Which does not make sense)

Probably the villain will be so strong as a member of winter soldier's program

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#60045: Jun 28th 2016 at 7:43:17 PM

He's not weaker than Cap, Cap just outfought him, which happens all the time in the comics. He's been beaten up by weaker opponents since he's been around as a character.

edited 28th Jun '16 7:45:01 PM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#60046: Jun 28th 2016 at 9:05:39 PM

He was beaten because Cap has more experience and used his while body weight against him.

dantecito Since: Dec, 2014
#60047: Jun 28th 2016 at 9:20:05 PM

Winter soldier is as strong and experienced as Captain, and Spiderman stopped his blow easily.

Anyway the new villain of Spiderman should be as strong as a super-soldier, for pose a threat in a physical battle against spiderman.

edited 28th Jun '16 9:28:04 PM by dantecito

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60048: Jun 29th 2016 at 2:23:33 AM

“I Can’t Trust My Own Mind”: How the Marvel Cinematic Universe Engages with Trauma

http://www.themarysue.com/mcu-trauma/

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#60049: Jun 29th 2016 at 3:50:41 AM

[up][up] Not really, Spider-man's villains run the gamut from being physically stronger to simply being better in a different area. He's fought Vultures for years because even with all his abilities it's difficult to contend with someone who can fly.

The Shocker is just a guy in a padded suit but his vibrators are enough to keep Spider-man from getting close enough to be physical.

80% Kraven the Hunter is just some dude with enough skill and pre-planning to give Spider-man trouble. Mysterio is just a squishy guy with unusually good special effects.

Physical threat is the least interesting thing about fights with Spider-man. Having someone in the same weight class would boring and pretty much just watching a scaled down version of the Superman/Zod fight or one of the many less-inspired fights in Dragonball Z

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Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love

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