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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#60001: Jun 27th 2016 at 2:29:25 PM

[up][up] Sorry, but no. That's the party line but it just doesn't fly. Cap ends up saving his friend (just like he wanted to), getting to lead pretty much every active Avenger save Vision and Widow (who is totally sympathetic to him anyway), Black Panther comes around to his point of view, he wins the climactic fight, he doesn't sign the accords (just like he wanted to.) Maybe he should have told Tony about his parents, but Bucky was brainwashed so he's innocent really, and besides, Steve was trying to protect Tony - which he took upon himself to do, never actually asking Tony.

Tony on the other hand gets beaten up, his parents' killer gets away, loses the prisoners he had managed to capture and is putting his best friend through physical therapy. The only Avenger left on his side is the one he created himself. Then he gets a patronising little note from Steve which basically says 'If you want the Avengers help, ask me.' So now Cap has the authority to choose the Avengers' fights and their mission... but it's totally different because it's Cap doing it.

We can debate it as much as we like, but with that ending the Russos have either gone for a massive villain victory or Steve was meant to be 'right' the whole time. We can disagree whether we think he was right, but in the actual movie... he was meant to be.

edited 27th Jun '16 2:31:44 PM by jakobitis

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#60002: Jun 27th 2016 at 2:31:42 PM

I don't see how the Cap scene could be any clearer. He shoots down the plan because he thinks Tony wants to cut and run, and he objects to the notion of killing hundreds of people and just skipping on home. There is no cherry-picking, there is no ambiguous syntax.

He calls it an escape plan because he thinks they are leaving. If they do not leave, it is not an escape plan. He is not objecting to the notion of blowing up Sokovia so much as he is objecting to the notion of blowing up Sokovia only to fly on home with all that blood on their hands. It's why he stops objecting to the plan as soon as Romanoff suggests staying behind rather than keep the argument going, as he would have if he'd really been that pigheaded.

For fuck's sake, there's enough to demonize Cap with in Civil War, we don't need to take an Ao U scene completely out of context for it.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#60003: Jun 27th 2016 at 2:57:54 PM

Agreed. There are fair places to critique Cap's actions and the narrative treatment of such, but I can't think of anything more demonizing to claim about him than "Cap would've blown up the world just to prove a point." He stopped to Natasha's words for a reason.

edited 27th Jun '16 2:59:42 PM by Tuckerscreator

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#60004: Jun 27th 2016 at 3:11:48 PM

Why does Thor's interference invalidate Vision's creation as an example of Steve being proven wrong and Tony being proven right? All Thor did was forcefully support Tony's point.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Cross (Don’t ask)
#60005: Jun 27th 2016 at 3:11:50 PM

What exactly is the argument here about?

[up]More like it cut out Steve's point entirely, much like what would have happened it stopped at Pietro plugging the plugs.

edited 27th Jun '16 3:14:46 PM by Cross

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60006: Jun 27th 2016 at 3:22:45 PM

We can debate it as much as we like, but with that ending the Russos have either gone for a massive villain victory or Steve was meant to be 'right' the whole time.
I think you are confusing whether a side is right or wrong with whether or not a side wins. In the comic book Civil War, it was very clear that the Pro-Reg side was wrong, but they won. In the movie Civil War, things are a lot more ambiguous — viewers and fans have come down on either side — despite the fact that Steve nominally "wins" (even if I don't consider "being on the run from the government" winning).

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60007: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:14:27 PM

Just a thing, when I complain about Cap scene in Ao U, it wasnt about him being right just how that scene play up as I think it make him lool incompetent

[up]Consider the number of thing throw at pro-reg to make look bad come can consider Steve one actually

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#60008: Jun 28th 2016 at 12:07:12 AM

It is kind of the very point of Cap's character that he is usually a paragon of virtue, and when he errs, he does so for understandable reasons. Just like it is the point of Tony's character to always do the wrong thing for the right reasons, or the point of Natasha's character to always struggle between the pragmatic and the heroic, and the point of Bruce's character that he is actually a pacifist who is pressed into a destructive role. Or the point of Thor's character that he always looks slightly down on humans because he is so much more powerful than we are.

That's what makes those movies so interesting in the first place.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60009: Jun 28th 2016 at 12:15:51 AM

In the comic book Civil War, it was very clear that the Pro-Reg side was wrong, but they won.

According to interviews after the fact, the writers claimed the pro-reg side were the ones we were supposed to root for.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60010: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:19:21 AM

They shouldn't have made a murderous Clone Thor. That's unethical on so many levels.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60011: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:21:55 AM

I believe someone mentioned on this site (can't remember the thread) that the Thor clone and all the other morally questionable and downright evil actions were to make things "fair" for the anti-reg side.

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#60012: Jun 28th 2016 at 5:42:42 AM

Yeah, I remember someone saying that it was assumed most fans would naturally side with pro-registration, so they thought they had to make the pro-reg side kick a few puppies to make it more even.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60013: Jun 28th 2016 at 5:46:48 AM

It's always heartwarming when creative people have no clue about their audiences. Why the fuck do they think the X-Men are so popular? It wasn't because we were rooting for Kelly, you imbeciles.

This is the age of freedom and liberty and every person who is reading these comics thinking it is their god or state- given right to do whatever the fuck whenever the fuck they want to. They are not going to identify with the side that says "no, you can't. Because of who you are, you are going to be on....THE LIST!"

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60014: Jun 28th 2016 at 5:53:12 AM

Except quite an umber of people did side with the pro-reg group. Or rather, they sided with the group that was for accountability and oversight instead of the group that was for beating up people without due process.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60015: Jun 28th 2016 at 5:57:43 AM

Nobody I knew sided with Pro-Reg. Indeed, one of the biggest criticisms of the entire event was that it failed utterly at Grey-and-Grey Morality. After all, we already have "Clor" the murderous clone of Thor. What did the Anti-Reg side ever do?

I know there was tons of other shady shit the Pro-Reg side did but it's been ten years, memory is fuzzy.

Meanwhile, over on the Anti-Reg side, Cap had actual standards, which is why he kicked Punisher out after Punisher wasted some D-List supervillains who showed up to support the cause.

edited 28th Jun '16 5:58:50 AM by Nikkolas

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60016: Jun 28th 2016 at 6:01:33 AM

The thing is that the people of the MU were for registration. Steve claimed to be fighting for the people but he didn't know or refused to acknowledge what they wanted. It's the same thing with the movie. He basically, has no plan except "beat up the people who don't agree with me". That's not how Democracy works.

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60018: Jun 28th 2016 at 6:17:14 AM

[up][up] The guys who invented democracy also said "the weak suffer what they must."

And quite frankly I'm not so certain how democratic the MU is anyway. Who voted for Weapon X or its million copies? Who authorized SHIELD to brainwash Red Skull's daughter?

The Marvel Universe operates on a veneer of real world ideas and politics but it's a very flimsy cover. It's corrupt, all kinds of amoral and beholden to absolutely no one.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#60019: Jun 28th 2016 at 6:23:35 AM

That's what the Accords and the SHRA were trying to fix. Corruption is a problem but it is in the real world as well. The solution isn't to let masked vigilantes run around unchecked. The same fear we have of stuff like Weapon X and Red Skull, the citizens also have the supers. We might as well say we shouldn't trust Steve because everyone with the super soldier serum has Ben shown as unhinged.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60020: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:32:39 AM

That's not how Democracy works.
Good thing we don't live in a democracy then. We live in a democratic republic. A particularly flawed democratic republic.

Do you think people actually vote for President? Nope! We vote for a specific representative that pledges to vote for the President that we want, but doesn't technically have to vote for them. (More specifically, if you are in a state where the "winner takes all," that means your representative will vote for the other candidate if the state goes in the other direction.) This is called the Electoral College and it is probably the most undemocratic thing we have. Why? Because the Founding Fathers were afraid of the people and what they might choose. So they implemented a system where nominally people could choose, but not really.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#60021: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:34:55 AM

Agreed. There are fair places to critique Cap's actions and the narrative treatment of such, but I can't think of anything more demonizing to claim about him than "Cap would've blown up the world just to prove a point." He stopped to Natasha's words for a reason.

That reason is that Fury arrived before Cap had a chance to respond to Nat.

That's the point. It's not really about what Cap would have done. It's about the way the movie interrupts the scene with a deus ex machine to prevent there from actually being a discussion. Even if you interpret his words as him mistakenly assuming that Stark's suggestion meant cutting and running, there isn't so much of an, "Okay, I might have overreacted. My bad, you guys," because Fury shows up to abruptly end the discussion.

And does so in a way that completely vindicates Cap's overreaction in the process. Cap takes extreme stances, makes absolute statements, refuses to ever compromise on anything, and is constantly depicted as being 100% unambiguously correct because of it. Even when he's not.

As previously discussed, the same scene also contains the unstated fact that the deus ex machine is only possible because Fury flipped the middle finger to one of Cap's previous Absolute Decisions. No one ever points out that Cap dismantling S.H.I.E.L.D. would have been a stupid-ass decision that killed everyone on the Sokovia meteor had Fury not elected to ignore it. Instead, Cap actually tries to spin it as a moral victory for himself.

And quite frankly I'm not so certain how democratic the MU is anyway. Who voted for Weapon X or its million copies? Who authorized SHIELD to brainwash Red Skull's daughter?

No country holds a public vote for top secret military ops. That would be completely asinine and defeat the purpose of "secret". Those decisions are made by elected officials. In a democracy, you vote for the elected officials that you trust to make those decisions correctly.

edited 28th Jun '16 8:38:50 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60022: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:35:54 AM

edited 28th Jun '16 8:36:23 AM by Nikkolas

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#60023: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:36:12 AM

In a democracy, you vote for the elected officials that you trust to make those decisions correctly.
Except not really, because most of those positions (Director of the CIA, Director of National Security, etc) are appointed, not elected. Not a democracy!

edited 28th Jun '16 8:37:52 AM by alliterator

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60024: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:39:10 AM

"No country holds a public vote for top secret military ops. That would be completely asinine and defeat the purpose of "secret". Those decisions are made by elected officials. In a democracy, you vote for the elected officials that you trust to make those decisions correctly."

Except there's no oversight, which was my point. Weapon X and its derivatives, SHIELD, it's all rampant chaos that no body voted for and no one wanted to happen. It's just a thing that exists because there is nothing even resembling actual democracy or representation in Marvel.

People flipped their shit because of Guantanamo Bay, what would they do if Weapon X was a thing?

edited 28th Jun '16 8:41:09 AM by Nikkolas

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#60025: Jun 28th 2016 at 8:41:09 AM

I thought Weapon X was Canadian?


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