Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Let's not forget that Cap was fine with ordering the Insight Helicarriers blown up with himself (and Bucky) aboard. He may have been adamantly against blowing up Sokovia while populated, but if it meant he'd have to pay for it with his own life then it might've been easier for him to swallow. Heroic Sacrifices and Steve are kind of a thing.
edited 27th Jun '16 12:11:12 PM by Tuckerscreator
No, what someone says during an argument is part of their stance. Cap's stance, assembled through the course of the entire conversation that line is in, is:
- "I asked for a solution, not an escape plan." Blowing up the meteor while there are still people on it is not a solution worth considering.
- "Not 'til everyone's safe." I will only consider it if we can ensure an absolute evacuation.
- "I'm not leaving this rock with one civilian on it." And if it comes to it, I will gladly die here with the rest of the world.
edited 27th Jun '16 12:22:27 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.They already found a solution and Cap shot it down as being unacceptable. That's the point. Cap is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good: he demands a perfect answer and the narrative rewards him for his stubbornness.
He would let the world die rather than accept a suboptimal resolution.
edited 27th Jun '16 12:27:37 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.- "I asked for a solution, not an escape plan."
- "Not 'til everyone's safe."
- "I'm not leaving this rock with one civilian on it."
Show me the "yet" because what I'm seeing are absolute statements and an out-of-hand rejection of Stark's idea.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.He's had, what, twenty seconds to think it over? This is his knee-jerk response. Give him another 10 minutes of digesting "no other solution, end of the world" and he'd relent. Cap doesn't like hard choices, but he's made them, like strangling Bucky or ordering the portal shut with Tony still inside. It would be odder for him to come to a rapid acceptance in that short amount of time.
edited 27th Jun '16 12:33:41 PM by Tuckerscreator
Yes, and the "until" is attached to "everyone's safe". As in, "I refuse to consider this option unless we can ensure every single person on the meteor gets away first."
Which is precisely the absolute stance we're discussing. Cap is unwilling to accept anything less than the perfect solution. Either everyone survives or no one does, because everyone burned all their limited time trying to find a perfect solution rather than evacuating as many people as possible.
Thinking is not a free action. Every moment spent trying to find a better option is another moment not spent shuttling people into Quinjets or onto buses that Thor can carry on his back or something. At that point, nobody was actually evacuating the city because everyone was too busy trying to solve the crisis. Thor actually carries a caught vehicle full of civilians back up to the island rather than down to the surface - putting those people right back in harm's way.
In their pursuit of a way to save everyone, the Avengers are very busy evacuating nobody until Fury shows up with his Helicarrier.
edited 27th Jun '16 12:59:58 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.[[Quoteblock]].....Why are people so bent on demonizing Cap? This has been a steady thing ever since Civil War came out. [[/quoteblock
Personally it's not a question of demonising him as much as it is pointing out that despite the way MCU Cap seems to be portrayed as some of paragon of morality but some of his actions just don't fit that. This isn't to say he's not far more good than bad and he is genuinely heroic but a lot of plot contrivances seem to happen specifically so Cap ends up being right.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."Every minute Thor or Iron Man might fly down to the surface carrying four or so civilians is another minute a dozen more Ultrons can kill fifty more people. Or a minute where their hands are occupied and so the Ultrons swarm them while the heroes can't use their weapons. They weren't evacuating yet because they had their hands full.
edited 27th Jun '16 1:07:05 PM by Tuckerscreator
I think that part of it is also that, when Tony or Thor or Banner, etc screw up, the films treat it like a screwup. Now they may play it up as a well-intentioned screw up, or them being worthy of redemption, but it's a screwup nonetheless. When Cap screws up however, the films either don't acknowledge as being a screwup at all, or they constantly give him quick and easy writing "outs" so that he still comes out looking good or doesn't have to face any real consequences/tough choices.
CW was like the first movie to NOT do that with him, and as a result it's the first time where "was Cap right to do what it did" is a matter or real debate amongst the audience.
...On second thought, scratch that. If you think this argument's gotten too toxic, please, for the love of God, do NOT see the DC movie thread.
in short, this is situation they cant win by puching stuff so they stay there doing nothing until Fury show up in deus ex machina, the issue is Cap look worst because he defied ultron in saving everyone...only to show he cant save a damn person
Also people are feeling more critical of Steve because they feel movie wasnt enought of him as with Tony, Civil war can be name "shit happen to tony stark" as he suffer a blunder after another and yet Cap accion are kind brush aside, specially the whole "in my feeling are tellig to do something, I just have to do it" which it bother a lot of people
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
They aren't doing nothing, they are trying to stop Ultron from his plan. If they can stop Ultron, there might be a way to save everyone. This is what Cap is fighting for.
edited 27th Jun '16 1:50:51 PM by alliterator
Captain America always does the right thing, and whatever he does is the right thing... because it's Captain America doing it. The other characters get shades of grey, they have their flaws and make their mistakes... Cap? Not so much, or at least no so that he personally seems to get called out on it or face personal repercussions.
Even in Civil War when there was supposed to be more debate as to who is correct, Cap beats up Tony, strolls into a top secret high security prison, busts his friends out and gets to do his Avenger thing with absolutely no oversight, just like he always wanted. Tony in contrast loses the fight and has to deal with his best friend being crippled. It's meant to be up for debate but there is absolutely no doubt as to which side the movie wants to be seen as right.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."edited 27th Jun '16 1:53:39 PM by alliterator
What a bizarre little argument, Cap's entire character hinging on such an innocuous exchange. I have nothing to go on except the text - does anyone here think perhaps the tone of this exchange alludes to his "true meaning?" Because as I say, the line is just so....generic that it can be read in both ways and since nothing seems to have come of it, it's a neverending debate.
Only other way to really nail down what interpretation is valid is to compare/contrast with other MCU Captain America actions. Has he ever shown this perfectionist streak he's accused of? Has he ever refused to compromise even when it looked like it would kill tons of people?
