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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59951: Jun 27th 2016 at 3:23:16 AM

Yeah, really, how DARE Cap to end up in a situation in which he is forced to order the kill hundreds. And how DARE Whedon to actually do something great with Natasha in the movie by building up on The Winter Soldier and The Avengers, showing that Natasha is the voice of pragmatism, letting her lay out his shitty option for him, so that he has acknowledge that yes, he will have to order the destruction of the floating City. And how DARE them to add a moving moment in which two characters (one of them previously defined by her own survival instincts) decide that they will leave their ride off the floating rock to someone else, so that someone else can survive in their place.

There are a lot of problems in Age of Ultron. But this scene is certainly not one of them. It is, in fact, alongside with the hammer scenes, the wood chopping scene, the peep talk and naturally Vision's confrontation with Ultron one of the best moments in the whole movie.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#59952: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:20:31 AM

[up]So the scene is good because they show interaction? by that same logic Shirtless Thor scene is good because it finally give them knowlage of the infinity stone or Natasha/Bruce in barn are good because it make them interact....see my point?

Also the whole choice feel force as Steven dosent even doubt for a moment, he just punch Ultra-bots, saying he will save people when Ultron clearly point out is usless since they are floating right now and them later just prove that point! and all Steve is sulk there talking until Nick come out of nowhere to save his ass, it dosent matter how much interaction you have about a situation if your solution to it is flying deus ex machina

In the end the only thing I get was: a) Steve idea of heroism os puching thing until it stop and b) when he cant, he just wait until the plot save him so he can get back to punch stuff...and of course, they pet him in the back for choicing good even when is already clear he will.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#59953: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:37:43 AM

  • Rogers: The next wave's gonna hit any minute. What have you got, Stark?
  • Stark: Well, nothing great. Maybe a way to blow up the city. That'll keep it from impacting the surface if you guys can get clear.
  • Rogers: I asked for a solution, not an escape plan.
  • Stark: Impact radius is getting bigger every second. We're going to have to make a choice.
  • Romanoff Cap, these people are going nowhere. If Stark finds a way to blow this rock...
  • Rogers: Not 'til everyone's safe.
  • Romanoff Everyone up here versus everyone down there? There's no math there.
  • Rogers: I'm not leaving this rock with one civilian on it.
  • Romanoff I didn't say we should leave. There's worse ways to go. Where else am I gonna get a view like this?

Steve's being completely unreasonable in this scene. He's letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. He would sooner let the entire planet die than sign off on an imperfect solution, clearly establishing that the body count isn't as important to him as how much blood is on his hands, personally. As Nat appropriately points out, it's insane that he would even consider this to be a choice. That it's even a discussion that needs to be had at all.

You save as many as you can, then blow it. That's the answer. It should be obvious to everyone. Even Nat's ridiculous olive branch is a ridiculous attempt to appeal to the centrist fallacy in a situation where there is absolutely no merit to Cap's position whatsoever. No compromise that should be had. He is 100% flat-out wrong.

In addition to being a convenient plot device, Fury showing up with the deus ex Helicarrier is also a prime example of how the reality of the MCU contorts itself to prevent Captain America from ever being acknowledged as in the wrong. Instead of having to face the reality of the situation, Cap's unyielding obstinance is narratively rewarded.

edited 27th Jun '16 9:39:44 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59954: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:40:23 AM

[up] Except he never tells Tony not to blow the city. He merely says, "I'm not leaving this rock with one civilian on it." Which means he's not leaving. He'll save as many people as he can up until they all suffocate from lack of air and then Tony can blow the city.

Saying, "Hey, you should kill these thousands of people in order to say millions" would cause anybody to be obstinate and tell you no, they won't kill thousands.

edited 27th Jun '16 9:41:45 AM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59955: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:41:42 AM

Oh my god, not another "Cap is never wrong in the MCU" argument. Why can't we discuss something else that doesn't dissolve into another argument?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#59956: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:46:03 AM

[up][up]except he is not offering an answer or anything really, when Natasha said there is a choice he ony answer is "No" and just stay there until the movie take the choice from him

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59957: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:48:17 AM

[up] No, he agrees with Natasha to stay on Sokovia saving people until it's too late for them. They are saved by the Helicarrier, sure, but they already made their choice to stay.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#59958: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:56:28 AM

[up]Them that is not saving anyone because otherwise they are going to die ether way, is pointless gesture that serve nothing so the movie is require to use external force to take the situation away.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59959: Jun 27th 2016 at 9:58:42 AM

[up] I don't think you understand. They would save as many people as they can using the quinjets and then, once that time has passed, they would die along with Sokovia so that everyone in the ground would live. That was what Natasha was saying.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#59960: Jun 27th 2016 at 10:27:52 AM

Yes, that's what Nat was suggesting. It was a middle-ground compromise to Cap's Perfect Solution Fallacy.

But it's not what Cap was saying. He chastises Stark for coming up with it, saying, "I asked for a solution, not an escape plan." Implying that Stark blowing up the makeshift meteor is not a solution to their predicament.

This exchange,

  • Romanoff: Cap, these people are going nowhere. If Stark finds a way to blow this rock...
  • Rogers: Not 'til everyone's safe.

has him further rejecting the suggestion of blowing up the meteor with even a single person still trapped on it. Cap makes it clear that he's not just opposed to escaping with his life intact; he does not acknowledge the idea of destroying the meteor as an acceptable course of action under any circumstances less than a 100% complete evacuation.

In essence, he's refusing to acknowledge time as a factor and instead demanding a perfect solution that makes it possible to ensure absolutely zero fatalities. Rather than being called out for how asinine this is, the narrative rewards him with Fury's deus ex machine.

edited 27th Jun '16 10:29:19 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59961: Jun 27th 2016 at 10:32:38 AM

Superhero universes do tend to lean optimistic

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59962: Jun 27th 2016 at 10:34:08 AM

[up][up] Once Natasha comes up with the compromise though, Cap agrees with it. I think that's what you aren't getting — of course Cap says he wants a perfect solution at first. He wants to save everyone. Unfortunately, he can't, so he goes with Natasha in sacrificing themselves in saving however many they can.

That one bit of dialogue isn't the end of the conversation, you know.

edited 27th Jun '16 10:34:15 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#59963: Jun 27th 2016 at 10:38:22 AM

No, he doesn't. He's never given a chance to agree or disagree. Fury shows up immediately after she offers the compromise, preventing Cap from actually having to make a hard choice on the matter.

  • Romanoff: I didn't say we should leave. There's worse ways to go. Where else am I gonna get a view like this?
  • Fury: Glad you like the view, Romanoff. It's about to get better.

At no point does Cap compromise. That's kind of the point of his character. He's never agreed to a compromise. It's the same thing in Winter Soldier, when he declares that S.H.I.E.L.D. must be completely dismantled from the inside out. Nothing less than the extreme absolute is acceptable to him.

Cap demands that things be done his way or not at all. Always. The narrative has constantly treated this as a positive trait and rewarded it.

edited 27th Jun '16 10:39:41 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59964: Jun 27th 2016 at 10:39:33 AM

In regards to leaning optimistic, it goes both ways. Stark's optimism that the dangerous AI experiment will work THIS time wins out over Steve's distrust.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#59965: Jun 27th 2016 at 10:40:35 AM

Benedict Wong talks about Wong.

“I’m certainly not going to be the tea-making manservant. We’re heading in a different direction. He’s more of a drill sergeant.

“There isn’t any martial arts for Wong in Doctor Strange actually, he’s more of a drill sergeant to Kamar-Taj. He’s one of the masters of sorcery.”

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#59966: Jun 27th 2016 at 10:40:36 AM

That one kinda gets a Debate and Switch. Tony and Cap never actually get the chance to has out who's right or wrong because Thor jumps into the middle of things and the end result is explicitly stated to not be what Tony intended anyways, so the result is, "Nobody was really right but it worked out well enough in the end."

edited 27th Jun '16 10:41:00 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cross (Don’t ask)
#59967: Jun 27th 2016 at 10:40:45 AM

[up][up][up]Only because of Thor.[nja]

edited 27th Jun '16 10:41:54 AM by Cross

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59968: Jun 27th 2016 at 10:51:33 AM

No, he doesn't. He's never given a chance to agree or disagree.
Just because he didn't reply doesn't mean he didn't agree with her. Had Fury not shown up at that moment, he looked pretty much ready to stand by Natasha and go with her plan.

edited 27th Jun '16 10:51:46 AM by alliterator

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#59969: Jun 27th 2016 at 11:15:15 AM

[up]x4

Wasn't there an animated version of Doctor Strange where Wong was one of Stephen Strange's trainers?

If so that's probably what they are drawing from for MCU Wong rather then the original 616 comics.

edited 27th Jun '16 11:15:27 AM by Falrinn

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#59970: Jun 27th 2016 at 11:22:12 AM

[up]Yes. It was a straight to DVD animated film Marvel did a while ago.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59971: Jun 27th 2016 at 11:26:22 AM

It is not in Cap's character to give up easily. He is too stubborn to do that. So he doesn't give up. He decides to stay and rescue as many people as he can even though it might be useless simply because that's what a hero does.

Plus, can you imagine the scene with Cap just shrugging and saying "Oh, Tony says there is no way out? Oh well....okay, people, we are done here, let's blow this pile of rock up and leave."

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#59972: Jun 27th 2016 at 11:36:53 AM

That's a False Dichotomy Strawman. Nobody was suggesting blowing the meteor right this second. Stark was reporting that he'd found a way to kill the meteor, and Cap was refusing to entertain the notion so long as a single person was still on it. No one said, "We should blow up the meteor right now, this very instant, and kill everyone on it."

Cap's extreme position was not taken in opposition to an equally extreme opposite position. He was the only one taking an absolute stance.

edited 27th Jun '16 11:37:31 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59973: Jun 27th 2016 at 11:45:37 AM

Again, his stance is "I'm not leaving this rock with one civilian on it." Which means that he wants to save all the civilians, but also that if he can't, he's not leaving. He's choosing the stay. He can't stop Tony from destroying the city, but he can stay there as save as many people as he can until they all die.

edited 27th Jun '16 11:46:12 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#59974: Jun 27th 2016 at 11:54:24 AM

That's not his stance, it's just something he said during the argument. He's also against the detonation. You're cherry-picking.

edited 27th Jun '16 11:54:44 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#59975: Jun 27th 2016 at 11:58:48 AM

Glad to hear that they took that particular criticism into account for Wong, but I wonder what prompts him to follow Strange around. Is it to provide him with discipline once he becomes the Sorcerer Supreme because he's Strong, but Unskilled?


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