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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#59901: Jun 25th 2016 at 11:56:05 PM

Yeah I don't think that it was all Ike's fault either. I don't know that he was truly responsible for the issues that I had with, say IM 3 or Thor: TDW. Feige isn't flawless either, as you say no one is. But there is this one guy who, by all accounts, has "issues." So it's easy to try and dump any and all problems that MS has had onto his shoulders, which I don't think is accurate or fair.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59902: Jun 25th 2016 at 11:57:50 PM

I don't know about Thor: The Dark World, but I do know that they intended on Iron Man 3 having a female villain and many people think it was Perlmutter who shut that idea down. I know Shane Black explicitly stated that it wasn't Feige's doing, so it'd make sense for people to jump to the conclusion that it was Perlmutter.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#59903: Jun 26th 2016 at 12:04:48 AM

Supposedly the decision was made over toy sales. Perlmutter was in charge of a toy company when they acquired Marvel. Officially all they were able to say was that the order came from "New York" and the way the interview was worded, it sounded like they basically confirmed it was pretty much him while avoiding names for plausible deniability reasons.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#59904: Jun 26th 2016 at 12:07:09 AM

I remember around the time of Age of Ultron, Feige was blamed by parts of the fandom for its editing issues. But back then barely any of them had heard of Ike Perlmutter, and then when his name started appearing (around the same time he was reassigned to Marvel TV), nearly all the blame shifted to him instead (aided by leaks of his emails to Sony).

And as mentioned before, Shane Black went out of his way to be clear that Feige wasn't the one who demoted Maya Hansen from Iron Man 3's Big Bad.

edited 26th Jun '16 12:07:30 AM by Tuckerscreator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59905: Jun 26th 2016 at 12:09:04 AM

Thing is, it is so easy to find someone to blame in each of the studios. At Fox it used to be Rothman, who kept trying to block the various X-men projects and is known for questionable meddling (though we now need a new one, since he left Fox and Sony snatched him up for whatever reason...might be part of the reason why Singer is now singled out more than he used to be). Speaking of Sony, there is used to be Avi Arad, but since he has been ousted from the main Spider-man franchise, we now can only blame him for stuff like the Venon movie (if it ever gets made). With Marvel it was really, really difficult for a long time since Feige was the official face of the MCU and it is hard to hold the bad decisions against him if there are so many good ones, and blaming "the studio" isn't really fun either, but now we have Perlmutter to complain about. (Though I guess it is hard to blame him for the script of Thor The Dark World....)

So far Snyder has been the face of the DCEU, he has directed both movies and is supposed to do a third one even though both of them were controversial at best. It is no wonder that he gets all the flak.

edited 26th Jun '16 12:09:46 AM by Swanpride

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#59906: Jun 26th 2016 at 12:10:56 AM

I was aware of the Maya Hansen/female villain thing (and I've given my thoughts on that BS already). But that's far from the only problem that I had with that movie.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#59907: Jun 26th 2016 at 1:48:59 AM

Given the info that Marvel has tried for female villains before but had those ideas shot down, I wonder if that persistent rumor of a female Radioactive Man from a few years back actually had some basis in fact way back when, but was canned in development long before it made actual rounds on the internet.

In any case, with the exception of Hela, are there any villainesses you guys are hoping we see in the future? I'd like to see Songbird, though admittedly not as a straightforward villain (I'd rather her the Anti-Villain Protagonist of a Thunderbolts/Masters of Evil movie, who is the chief character to make a Heel–Face Turn in the climax). I still would also really like to see Janice Lincoln, and with Spidey more or less in the MCU there should be no rights issues of any kind any more.

On an almost unrelated note, I've been thinking of what it might look like if the movies (or the comics, whatever) brought back the "Sandman's daughter" concept, gave her powers like in Reign, didn't kill her off like Reign in did, and played the two of them as a Noble Demon Anti-Villain family. The films could composite her with Quicksand or something, and with all the off the wall "fun, morally ambiguous protagonist" series Marvel's got going on these days like Gwenpool, the idea of a father/daughter but-not-all-that-evil supervillain hijinks sounds like a pretty cool idea.

Though given what they did to Billy Connors even after they gave themselves a plot hook with the Lizard Jr. bit, maybe Marvel isn't ready for that sort of thing.

edited 26th Jun '16 1:51:32 AM by KnownUnknown

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#59908: Jun 26th 2016 at 4:31:08 AM

Female Radioactive Man? Interesting. I'd never heard that.

Perlmutter is probably definitely not the only problem at Marvel, it's just that he's so cartoonishly bad that it's impossible to pick on another target. Everything that's come out about him, whether it be the lawsuits or the leaked emails, verges into Strawman Political territory.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#59909: Jun 26th 2016 at 7:52:48 AM

I don't think that CW is racist either, but I think that any arguments to that regard come down to, a bunch of Black people getting killed to motivate a cast of, lets face, mostly White characters. A black kid getting fridged (offscreen) just to motivate Tony, and then in both cases those deaths are kind of just forgotten about once the main plot gets going. The fates of certain characters, and Nick Fury being absent with no onscreen explanation whatsoever despite it making all the sense in the world that he'd be there given his previous character and the ending of AOU (as much as I really like the Russo's, they've done this TWICE now in two movies). Also the Hulk rampaging through South Africa not being mentioned at all (which given that Scarlet Witch and how she's treated is a major factor in this film, you'd think that that'd have come up at SOME point in the film, or her helping/working with Ultron in-general, but it doesn't), etc.

Funnily enough, IIRC, the kid that dies is not only in the comics, but he's white. The Wakandans die mainly to spur T'Chaka, who is himself a dead man walking because his death is fundamental to T'Challa becoming the Black Panther. As for Nick Fury, I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be deeply underground.

The movie ignoring Hulk's rampage through South Africa is problematic, though the problem is less that it's "implicitly racist" and more that it glosses over one of Wanda's more villainous acts in Ao U.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#59910: Jun 26th 2016 at 8:46:24 AM

"Young black kid with lots of potential gets killed thanks to the negligence of cavalier white folks, and only his mother cares" immediately caught me as something that would resonate with black audiences, tbh. I didn't think of it as the character dying to motivate Tony until just now, especially since the guilt and consequences of Sokovia is such a major theme in movie as a whole.

Female Radioactive Man? Interesting. I'd never heard that.

Waaaaay back when Iron Man 3 was coming out, long before we knew much of anything about the Mandarin, there was a persistent rumor that one of the characters was going to be a female Chen Lu, pre-villain origin, and that she was going to factor into the main plot and the plot they put together for China's release. The rumor stated that she would be a supporting character at first, and then get into an accident at the end of the film for use as an Anti-Villain later on in Ant-Man.

In retrospect, I wonder if that all started as a distortion of original plans they had for Maya Hansen.

The rumor returned again when Ultron was coming out, with the idea that the plans for the character got pushed back, though it's likely the character people thought was her was actually Helen Cho. And then it came back for a little bit again when Ant-Man was coming out.

I mainly remember it because it was an idea I liked, and for a rumor it was surprisingly well put together. I'm just musing that maybe it was actually based on an idea Marvel had after all, but which they scrapped a la the Big Bad Maya plans.

edited 26th Jun '16 9:20:46 AM by KnownUnknown

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59911: Jun 26th 2016 at 9:57:50 AM

I remember some numbskulls edited some Wikipedia page (either it was Iron Man 3's or Radioactive Man's) to make it say that Chen Lu would appear in the stinger with Ant-Man. I don't recall them putting anything about Chen Lu being a woman, but with this new info on that rumor, it makes me kinda frustrated at how Perlmutter blocked such a good idea, if it really was an idea they were going for.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#59912: Jun 26th 2016 at 10:01:55 AM

On the topic of female Marvel villains, the following are ones I wanted to see:

  • Enchantress: Ever since the Thor movies were release I have been hoping to see this character adapted on screen. Her Yandere personality makes an interesting dynamic to the villainous acts she commits as they are all for the purpose to grab the attention of her arch nemesis that she loves. Especially with all that Thor-Jane Foster shipping the movie has been doing, it would be nice to have actual conflict impose on this relationship like some powerful witch who can influence the whims of men and cast spells that can summon deadly warriors and demons.
  • Moonstone: Why not? Her power set is really badass. Her character can be used for any Marvel Heroes to fight (Hulk, Captain Marvel, Ant-Man and Wasp, Iron Man). And she is a master manipulator making her a viable big bad.
  • Crimson Cowl: Not sure if my original idea for the Master of Evil will happen, but the one formed by Justine Hammer can happen. Some changes would be made like that she is the younger sister of Justin Hammer who is getting revenge on Stark for putting her brother in jail and ruining the reputation of the Hammer Family and unlike her brother is a successful inventor who gave her allies enhanced abilities using specialized tech.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#59913: Jun 26th 2016 at 10:42:50 AM

[up] Moonstone is also pretty interesting as she is pretty much Carol Danvers's Evil Counterpart. If there's a franchise to fit her in, I imagine CM.

edited 26th Jun '16 10:51:08 AM by shatterstar

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59914: Jun 26th 2016 at 10:44:32 AM

I'm still skeptical about the possibility of using Justine Hammer to start the Masters of Evil. It feels like they're trying to use Zemo as a way to set them up.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59916: Jun 26th 2016 at 12:01:46 PM

Avengers vs. X-Men is coming?
Short answer: No.

Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

edited 26th Jun '16 12:02:02 PM by alliterator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59918: Jun 26th 2016 at 12:03:01 PM

Oh my god, this is hilarious:

I've heard from a few of my sources, my little birds, that Fox and Marvel have kind of talked, but not really, but there's interest from Fox

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#59919: Jun 26th 2016 at 12:15:09 PM

IF that is at all true, it sounds very much like Fox trying to make a similar deal like the Spider-Man one... and Marvel going 'nope.' Honestly, as odd as it sounds by this stage introducing mutants to the MCU would probably be just too messy to work well : 'Oh yeah, by the way in addition to all the Avengers there are also a whole race of people with a gene that gives them superpowers. No, not Inhumans, a different whole race. That we never even hinted at. So yeah.'

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#59920: Jun 26th 2016 at 12:15:57 PM

I mean, it's Fox, so they could be technically trying for the Fantastic Four and not X-Men. Which I would be fine with.

yellowturtle from Nowhere Important Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
#59921: Jun 26th 2016 at 1:03:09 PM

Why won't people let this go? An X-Men-Marvel crossover is just not going to happen in the foreseeable future. It's just not.

The X-Men movies are doing way better than Fan4stic did, so even if Marvel and Fox are in discussion about the rights, it won't happen for a long time.

Crow: There's a plot?
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#59922: Jun 26th 2016 at 1:05:51 PM

At least in part it's because the Marvel Zombies seem to take it personally that there's any Marvel properties not part of the MCU .

Another part is that people just seem to love drama.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59923: Jun 26th 2016 at 3:27:24 PM

I don't think that Marvel wants the mess X-men verse anywhere near their MCU. I do think that they want the fantastic 4 rights back, but I am also ready to bet that they won't share. There is no reason for them to help Fox to hold onto those rights. So whatever they are currently discussing, it will be nothing like the X-men deal.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59924: Jun 26th 2016 at 6:12:14 PM

Another "I heard it in a bar" thing.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#59925: Jun 26th 2016 at 6:33:35 PM

Well, maybe if Marvel got the X Men rights back, even if they couldn't incorporate them into the MCU, they'd stop shitting on them in the comics (the whole Inhuman Terrigen mists killing mutants thing).

And you know, make Scott a hero.

One Strip! One Strip!

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