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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#59576: Jun 19th 2016 at 6:02:21 AM

The only Whedon Cap line (from the first Avengers at least) that really bothered me was Steve's conversation with Tony about being willing to sacrifice yourself. Specifically sneering "always a way out" when Tony said he'd cut the wire.

Uh, Steve? You're the same guy who unscrewed a flagpole to bring it down rather than climb it. Remember that? Yeah, nothing wrong with avoiding sacrificing yourself if you don't need to.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#59577: Jun 19th 2016 at 6:17:19 AM

Captain America can very easily veer into more righteous-than-thou and preachy, even under experienced and talented writers (which Whedon totally is.) It's just very hard to write it convincingly that Cap is pretty much always right without making everyone else look dumber than a sack of spanners.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#59578: Jun 19th 2016 at 6:54:36 AM

[up][up]A matter of consistency though obtaining the flag problem was a problem solving exercise rather than a life or death situation involving sacrifice; the Drill Sargent never said "1st one to climb the pole & brings me the flag", he simply said "1st one to bring me the flag" period! Steve listened closely, used his brain & succeeded whereas that neanderthal bully Hodge & the other recruits became anxious, not thinking. Steve remained calmed, thinking on his feet. Also it was during a time he was physically incapable to climb the pole.

One last tidbit. The scene was added because the director's felt they needed to show Steve's cleverness before he went superhuman.

edited 19th Jun '16 7:08:55 AM by FictionWriterKing

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#59579: Jun 19th 2016 at 7:10:20 AM

I don't get the complaint that Loki was out-of-character in The Avengers, because we really didn't know much about Loki's character before that movie. His only character development in Thor was his Motive Rant at the very end; prior to that, everything he says and does is part of an elaborate ruse, so none of it can be treated as indicative of his real personality.

edited 19th Jun '16 7:39:16 AM by RavenWilder

FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#59580: Jun 19th 2016 at 7:17:56 AM

The only way Loki would be very be out of character is if all previous characterization, motivations, flaws, strengths, wants, and needs suddenly fault or change for the plot's convenience. Someone creates a plot that forces him to act in a way that conflicts with the previous description of his personality. I don't see how it happened yet.

[up]Prior to the inciting incidentident, Loki wanted gratification for being Thor's brother. A purpose worth admiration. He felt royal, sigfencent, and important, but as time went on the balance of his life was thrown off in order to create a forward momentum of change. From insisting he was Thor's equal came the realization that he would never have that desire based on other people's treatment of him. That' when the ruses came into play - how he handled it.

edited 19th Jun '16 7:58:31 AM by FictionWriterKing

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59581: Jun 19th 2016 at 7:57:09 AM

It is hard to write Loki out of character at all because the moment he does act out of character, I would immediately suspect that he has some ulterior motive acting this way.

FictionWriterKing Since: Apr, 2016
#59582: Jun 19th 2016 at 8:00:42 AM

The obvious current goal with Loki is to still take revenge on his brother by making himself king of a world that Thor considers to be under his protection. Also at some level he wants to be appreciated for doing it.

It's clear to me Loki would never stop feuding against Thor.

edited 19th Jun '16 8:02:14 AM by FictionWriterKing

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#59583: Jun 19th 2016 at 9:17:26 AM

The stuff about Loki being out of character in The Avengers usually comes from people who think Loki is much better than he's actually depicted as being in Thor. The biggest criticism I usually see is that Loki isn't as smart or a Chessmaster anymore, but I never got the sense he was a Chessmaster to begin with. If anything he seems more adept at Xanatos Speed Chess.

His "plan" in Thor is basically a stupid prank that goes horribly wrong, and everything he does in the movie is a desperate attempt to keep his daddy from finding out. And even then he's visibly scared or worried several times throughout it. This interpretation of Loki as this ice cold amazing puppet master who always has some grand, sweeping ingenious plan to conquer and manipulate everyone and who is never ever challenged or threatened is something that exists in the minds of the fans.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59584: Jun 19th 2016 at 9:53:20 AM

It always read to me that fans of Loki in Thor thought he wasn't sympathetic in The Avengers, which is what they liked about him in the first place.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59585: Jun 19th 2016 at 9:53:29 AM

Pretty much Loki just takes what's going on and uses it to his advantage.

[up]

I mean, of course he wasn't sympathetic, he's the fucking villain.

edited 19th Jun '16 9:54:00 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#59586: Jun 19th 2016 at 9:55:52 AM

It's a pretty standard character development for Loki, honestly. In Thor he's already a petulant man child of sorts who wants the throne for himself and make daddy proud. Once Thor and Odin oppose his plans, Loki snaps, realizing (from his twisted perspective) he would never get daddy's approval, so he goes bananas and decides to just try to carve something out for himself (Midgard, that is).

Loki is a nuanced villain in Thor but people tend to forget how uncaring for loss of life he is. Besides attempting genocide on the Frost Giants, he's also entirely prepared to kill every single thing in New Mexico until Thor surrenders.

From that to "Trying to conquer Earth" isn't that big of a step.

edited 19th Jun '16 9:57:42 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#59587: Jun 19th 2016 at 9:59:05 AM

[up][up][up][up] Really? My impression was that everything Loki did in Thor was something he'd planned out well in advance: let some Frost Giants into Asgard so Thor will go on an unsanctioned mission against them, getting him punished by Odin, and leaving the throne open for Loki to take when he triggers the Odinsleep.

edited 19th Jun '16 9:59:45 AM by RavenWilder

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#59588: Jun 19th 2016 at 10:01:27 AM

[up][up]I'd have found the attempted genocide on the Frost Giants' more horrific if we saw Frost Giants that weren't villains. It's hard to feel bad for a race that has only been shown to be antagonistic.

Everything else he did was beyond the pale though.

edited 19th Jun '16 10:01:49 AM by windleopard

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#59589: Jun 19th 2016 at 10:07:49 AM

Eh, they can't all be evil. And even if they were, it seems wrong for Loki to preemptively destroy their entire Realm given they hadn't really done anything (to quote our friend Cap, "I thought punishment came after the crime"). Only Laufey and a pair of frost giants do anything wrong in the film (attempting to kill Odin and breaking into the Vault, respectively). The other Frost Giants were defending themselves from Thor attacking them.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#59590: Jun 19th 2016 at 10:47:19 AM

Whedon's run on Runaways was pretty shit but Molly exploding Punisher's nuts was great

Likewise when she beat up Wolverine earlier in the Runaways

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#59591: Jun 19th 2016 at 11:24:56 AM

re the first avengers:

I've said this before, but I don't really see that film as a masterpiece but my opinion on it is colored by the conditions and mindset I was in at that time.

The thing is, I feel like a LOT of people's excitement for that film came from wanting to see all those characters together, and that obviously goes without saying.

...BUT on the other hand, I couldn't share that excitement because of all the phase 1 films, only iron man really stood out to me. i've become more appreciative of TFA and even back then I thought it was the best after iron man 1, but everything else was terribly mediocre and did not give me any reasons why I should be invested in Thor or Hulk.

So I was pretty bored throughout Avengers because the premise didn't really do anything for me, and none of the writing really did anything to make me more appreciative of the characters I already didn't care about, not to mention that Loki himself, whether you want to argue about whether his character makes sense or whatever, is just NOT INTERESTING in that movie compared to how he was in the first Thor film.

The weird part is, a lot of people agree with me about those films but somehow loved Avengers anyways. I'm used to having weird opinions tho so it's not a big deal. In retrospect I think I would probably enjoy the film more if I rewatched it, but those were my feelings about it at the time.

edited 19th Jun '16 11:27:33 AM by wehrmacht

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59592: Jun 19th 2016 at 11:29:54 AM

I don't think that Loki thought THAT far ahead. He let the Frost Giants in because it was his last shot to prevent the celebration from happening, but I don't think he expected anyone to die in the process. He egged Thor on, but I looked honestly surprised when he wanted to start the execution, taking Loki with him. Either Loki just wanted Thor to quarrel with his father even more, or he didn't expect Thor to invite him to come with him. In any case, it was not in his interest that anyone from Asgard has contact with the Frost giants, because they might reveal that they had inside help. I also don't think that he expected Odin to outright banish Thor in his anger.

Up to this point, Loki acts more like a kid, playing his tricks with no grasp on the consequences. But when he learns about his true heritage, his plan becomes more complicated...staging an assassination attempt on Odin in order to be the hero in the eyes of his father. Still, not a good plan, simply because he miscalculated Odin's reaction badly.

What he does in Avengers is actually right in character if not for one thing: Loki has never shown any interest in Earth before. What he always wanted is to show the world that he is a better ruler of Asgard than Thor could ever hope to be.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#59593: Jun 19th 2016 at 12:40:17 PM

Well, there is the theory that he was somewhat being controlled by the Sceptre / Mind stone himself.

Maybe it amped up certain feeling and emotions and pointed him in the direction it did. Not flat out mind control, as much as subtle pointing.

We have no proof, but I think that interpretation is still on the table isn't it?

One Strip! One Strip!
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#59594: Jun 19th 2016 at 12:56:10 PM

I've said this before, but I don't really see that film as a masterpiece but my opinion on it is colored by the conditions and mindset I was in at that time. The thing is, I feel like a LOT of people's excitement for that film came from wanting to see all those characters together, and that obviously goes without saying.

I feel pretty much the same way.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#59595: Jun 19th 2016 at 1:10:57 PM

I don't know...I am pretty much a late-comer to the MCU, meaning I watched The Avengers after the hype was over (in fact, I even missed out on the hype, I just wasn't that interested in movies in general at that point). And you know what, this was actually pretty great because I could watch the movies without any prior notion or hype or even a trailer in mind until last year. But when I watched The Avengers, I really liked the movie. Not for some excitement of seeing those characters on screen (not a comic book fan here), but simply because the movie was a joy to watch. It is not my favourite in the MCU...the last two Cap movies and Got G are placed above it, but I think place 4 in the MCU is still a very impressive ranking.

Don't get me wrong, when you boil it down it is a fairly simple movie which mostly celebrates its own existence, but that doesn't change the fact that it does what it is supposed to do really, really well.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#59596: Jun 19th 2016 at 1:12:57 PM

You know what the biggest problem in The Avengers is? That Bruce somehow knew he had to go to New York

That's explained in the movie. After Bruce admits his suicide attempt and realizes he's holding Loki's scepter, the computer scanning for Tesseract energy beeps that its search is complete and he goes to check it out. We see him look at the screen and look shocked, but he doesn't get to tell anyone else the Tesseract is in New York because brainwashed Hawkeye blows up one of the Helicarrier's rotors right that second.

edited 19th Jun '16 1:14:51 PM by Tuckerscreator

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59597: Jun 19th 2016 at 1:13:08 PM

"His "plan" in Thor is basically a stupid prank that goes horribly wrong, and everything he does in the movie is a desperate attempt to keep his daddy from finding out. And even then he's visibly scared or worried several times throughout it. This interpretation of Loki as this ice cold amazing puppet master who always has some grand, sweeping ingenious plan to conquer and manipulate everyone and who is never ever challenged or threatened is something that exists in the minds of the fans."

Uh, you have it completely backwards.

The reason I liked Loki in Thor was because it was not some Evil Plan but a mad scramble as his world unraveled and he tried to keep everything together. When he finds out about his birth, it must have been beyond crushing because I'm sure Loki, in spite of all his resentment and jealousy, never truly believed Odin loved Thor more than him and that's why he was getting the throne. But finding out who he is, I don't think being proven "right " has ever been so horrible. Loki must have felt like every single feeling and thought he ever had that he was treated badly or unjustly or that his father viewed him as inferior to Thor was proven right. He's a monster - he's the ancient enemy of "his people." How could Odin ever have truly cared for him, let alone valued him equally to Thor? Like he said, how could Odin ever let a Frost Giant on the throne of Asgard.

Everything he does, he does to validate himself. He's coming at everything from a position of emotional weakness and instability. He's not even remotely a cool, collected Chessmaster and he's never presented as one.

...except for The Avengers. Before, where Loki, who's crimes cannot be excused but can at least be understood - stuff like genociding the Frost Giants makes a lot of sense when you think about it from Loki's position of self-loathing - now he's just a generic bad guy trying to conquer the world. No more mental plights or breakdowns, no more extreme mental confusion offering some rationalization for what he's doing. He just wants to take over the world because........

edited 19th Jun '16 1:14:40 PM by Nikkolas

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#59598: Jun 19th 2016 at 1:18:42 PM

In terms of writing, Loki's viciousness and willingness to do nasty things for selfish reasons is played up in Avengers - the veneer he has in the Thor movies is pretty much gone in favor of nastiness and snark. He's played as more of a straightforward villain, which makes sense given that his relationship to his brother and family is severely downplayed - the Thor movies by and large treat Loki's villainy as a tragedy and write him accordingly, while Avengers treat him like the entitled jerkass he is beneath the surface and write him accordingly to that.

There's a reason, and Thor Loki is still a horrible person, but his character definitely is written differently. He's a different kind of antagonist. I don't really see the point in denying it.

edited 19th Jun '16 1:20:52 PM by KnownUnknown

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#59599: Jun 19th 2016 at 1:22:00 PM

Like I said, I also think it fits thematically. Loki in Thor is trying to prove to everyone he's a good guy and worthy of his father's approval. Given that fails catastrophically, Avengers-Loki is basically going Then Let Me Be Evil and just doing whatever the Hell he sees fit.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#59600: Jun 19th 2016 at 1:22:36 PM

Different, yeah. Is that bad, though? I mean, I liked Loki a bit more in The Avengers than in Thor (I think he was at his best in Thor: The Dark World though).

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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